What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
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19-09-2013, 09:31 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 09:20 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Un clown est assis sur un trône fait de sucrerie tandis que ses larmes d'acide révèlent un monde secret sous les pierres de son château couvert de mousse.

A clown yn eistedd ar orsedd a wnaed o candy tra bod ei dagrau asid yn datgelu byd cudd o dan y cerrig y castell wedi'i orchuddio â mwsogl.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-09-2013, 09:40 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
I suppose it could be valuable to define what I have denied that we have when I say 'we have no free will'. Don't expect a textbook definition, some may disagree, but I'm gonna keep it simple.

1.) The ability to choose voluntarily.
2.) The ability to choose one's thoughts, and hence actions, independently.

Anyone take issue with either/both of those? Seems clear and concise to me. After typing those I bothered to look up dictionary.com's definition which was very nearly what I typed above for their definition 1, but they do offer a second definition, below.

Free Will - Philosophy . the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

If that is the case it is by definition a metaphysical phenomena. I can't speak for anyone else (perhaps I have no choice in the matter), but I don't go nuts about metaphysical anything. I'm a skeptic, but more importantly (for the sake of this conversation) I am a pragmatist. Does anyone here contest that there is something of other than the physical world which is affected our decisions? Anyone here believe in a 'spirit' or 'soul' or some type of duality in humans? I think that's what it would take for 'free will' to exist.

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19-09-2013, 09:51 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 09:40 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I suppose it could be valuable to define what I have denied that we have when I say 'we have no free will'. Don't expect a textbook definition, some may disagree, but I'm gonna keep it simple.

1.) The ability to choose voluntarily.
2.) The ability to choose one's thoughts, and hence actions, independently.

Anyone take issue with either/both of those? Seems clear and concise to me. After typing those I bothered to look up dictionary.com's definition which was very nearly what I typed above for their definition 1, but they do offer a second definition, below.

Free Will - Philosophy . the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

If that is the case it is by definition a metaphysical phenomena. I can't speak for anyone else (perhaps I have no choice in the matter), but I don't go nuts about metaphysical anything. I'm a skeptic, but more importantly (for the sake of this conversation) I am a pragmatist. Does anyone here contest that there is something of other than the physical world which is affected our decisions? Anyone here believe in a 'spirit' or 'soul' or some type of duality in humans? I think that's what it would take for 'free will' to exist.

Yah, I take exception to that.

Why do you include controlling one's thoughts? Likely everyone has the experience of intrusive or unwanted thoughts. And desires, and emotions.

I would keep the definition to behavior, to action and inaction. Possibly to conscious, directed thinking.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-09-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
I was going with thought leads to choice/action. My point was that that we all have intrusive thoughts, desires and emotions. I'm not really bothered if you want to exclude it though. If you omit thought and go directly to the result of thoughts you still wind up with the same conclusion, do you not?

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19-09-2013, 11:11 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 08:25 AM)absols Wrote:  they are done of evil means to abuse what a person would say, true persons

u r acting as if u alone know this time life everywhere, when everyone know shitty but they dont act like they got anything or that it is of any value by its fact

wat matter is the end and urs is obvious to me

Bonjour?

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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19-09-2013, 11:37 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 08:46 AM)absols Wrote:  hey crazy bitch, here is real when u cant see that me and evolutionkills were speaking on certain intellectual level directly, u cant pretend that u ever have any conversation or even try to pretend

Conversation? What conversation? I'd get more sense out of using a dictionary's pages for dart board practice and stringing together the words that the darts just happend to land on. Drinking Beverage

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19-09-2013, 12:22 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 10:06 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I was going with thought leads to choice/action. My point was that that we all have intrusive thoughts, desires and emotions. I'm not really bothered if you want to exclude it though. If you omit thought and go directly to the result of thoughts you still wind up with the same conclusion, do you not?

My point really is that 'thinking' is not one simple thing. It appears to be a collection of evolved brain modules/mind functions that is multi-level. The sum of that may be what we perceive as consciousness, or that perception itself is consciousness. What we don't have is full control over all of it, but appear to have control over some of it.

Free will may exist but be limited only to a very thin top layer of our cognition. Other animals seem to have it in some degree - other apes, dolphins, ravens, canids, ...

Homo sapiens is special only in that we may have the most complex cognition of life on earth, but that is not yet proven. The evidence that it is so is strong, but only when we have a better understanding of brain and mind can we expect to be able to confirm it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-09-2013, 12:23 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
yeayea sure advertisement replace the product

of course, certain level only truth exist

so it is normal, u cant feel existing certain level many is happening in real all u have to expect is what suddenly u will shut down wont b able to mean any letter
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19-09-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 01:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Humans are on no way, in control of the chemical processes in their brains, (except indirectly, maybe, in some very rare instances such as deep meditation states). What you perceive of as "present moment" consciousness, is actually ALREADY in the past, by the time your brain has "assembled" and organized all of what goes in to what you perceive as "now".

So, you're saying if you're playing chess, BB, and you are holding a bishop in the air then pause before setting it on the board, and you start an internal dialogue of "play the piece on that square" and also "play the queen to the back rank instead" and you look over at the timer and see time is running out, and you keep hesitating and the time indicates you should put the piece down or move the other one, that whether you put the piece down or whether you move the bishop back to its starting square and move the queen instead, or whether you sit there like a robot unmoving until you lose the game on time is all predetermined?

You know how many chess players I've seen NOT move ANY piece when they're low on time...?

If all choices are predetermined (your definition against free will) how can anyone ever have an internal dialogue at all with opposing views? You know, with the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other? What is the evolved necessity toward survivability of constantly arguing one's own "choices" with one's self among ourselves as higher animals?
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19-09-2013, 01:34 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 04:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  There are multiple issues here.

No one has given a clear definition of 'free will'.
I suspect no one can given that we don't have clear definitions of consciousness or cognition.
We don't know how thought works, what actually constitutes self-awareness or even self.

We certainly have the appearance of choice, of will, and we loosely call that free will.

More data, more evidence are needed.

I'll help you, Chas.

I'm replying to you, and you are thus tempted to reply to me and tell me to off myself. If you don't make any reply to me, you demonstrate that you have and exercise free will.
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