What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
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19-09-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 01:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'll help you, Chas.

I'm replying to you, and you are thus tempted to reply to me and tell me to off myself. If you don't make any reply to me, you demonstrate that you have and exercise free will.

Here's what's interesting to me: Now that you've written that post, you've forced an 'A or B' decision situation. Either 'reply' or 'ignore' will happen and there is no way to avoid it. In fact, if he never reads your post, we will default to 'B' automatically. Is that free will, when the decision cannot be avoided?

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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19-09-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
Fee Will would be defined as the ability to freely chose between two or more options.

This is why Free Will is an illusion.

First proof:
Between options there is a best option formed by your mind. Your mind which has been formed by outside influences (experience) and genetics.
It is irrational to propose that anyone would choose the second best option or worst option. Therefore, the choice was made before the options ever presented themselves. No Free Will.

Second proof:
If we spun time back to the big bang (13.4 billion years ago) and started all over, there is no rational reason to suggest that any event would not happen exactly as it has happened to this day. We would end up with the "exact" same state. It would be irrational for any decision from any species to be made differently - See first proof.

Nothing in your mind is an original thought or action, just a reaction to a outside stimulus which fired the neural network, which produces a reaction based on learning from previous stimulus experience and actions, all based on genetics, which you had no control over.

Translation: An earthworm avoids the sun, because that's what earthworms do.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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19-09-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 01:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 04:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  There are multiple issues here.

No one has given a clear definition of 'free will'.
I suspect no one can given that we don't have clear definitions of consciousness or cognition.
We don't know how thought works, what actually constitutes self-awareness or even self.

We certainly have the appearance of choice, of will, and we loosely call that free will.

More data, more evidence are needed.

I'll help you, Chas.

I'm replying to you, and you are thus tempted to reply to me and tell me to off myself. If you don't make any reply to me, you demonstrate that you have and exercise free will.

What? That is not responsive to my post.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-09-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 02:28 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Fee Will would be defined as the ability to freely chose between two or more options.

This is why Free Will is an illusion.

First proof:
Between options there is a best option formed by your mind. Your mind which has been formed by outside influences (experience) and genetics.
It is irrational to propose that anyone would choose the second best option or worst option. Therefore, the choice was made before the options ever presented themselves. No Free Will.

No, because there are myriad choices, not all of which might be thought of.

Quote:Second proof:
If we spun time back to the big bang (13.4 billion years ago) and started all over, there is no rational reason to suggest that any event would not happen exactly as it has happened to this day. We would end up with the "exact" same state. It would be irrational for any decision from any species to be made differently - See first proof.

No, because the behavior of particles is probabilistic, not deterministic.

Quote:Nothing in your mind is an original thought or action, just a reaction to a outside stimulus which fired the neural network, which produces a reaction based on learning from previous stimulus experience and actions, all based on genetics, which you had no control over.

Translation: An earthworm avoids the sun, because that's what earthworms do.

No, that does not follow as 1 & 2 are false.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-09-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
you are so stupid, how that free will cant b but if u pick a glass or not, only bc u r an ass hole that never move and keep dreaming of picking smthg that would allow u to shit so u would get the illusion of being above urself

merde it is incredible how deaf u r to anything said even what u say

what u suggest of wills is relative, so it could b u or else
any power could easily interfer or leave it up to u if dont give a fuck about u at all
do u think that even animals while they are possessed never move alone too???

the point of free will if it is true or not, is to check the possibility of doing smthg totally alone, then free will is true as meaning, individuals can b constant selves ends so existing

the question is for individuals existence not about if what u r puting in ur pockets or mouth is real

ur way of questionning, is like questionning if u exist

which is absurd what are u expecting

u r asking it ...arent u morons
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19-09-2013, 03:02 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
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If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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19-09-2013, 06:33 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 01:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 01:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Humans are on no way, in control of the chemical processes in their brains, (except indirectly, maybe, in some very rare instances such as deep meditation states). What you perceive of as "present moment" consciousness, is actually ALREADY in the past, by the time your brain has "assembled" and organized all of what goes in to what you perceive as "now".

So, you're saying if you're playing chess, BB, and you are holding a bishop in the air then pause before setting it on the board, and you start an internal dialogue of "play the piece on that square" and also "play the queen to the back rank instead" and you look over at the timer and see time is running out, and you keep hesitating and the time indicates you should put the piece down or move the other one, that whether you put the piece down or whether you move the bishop back to its starting square and move the queen instead, or whether you sit there like a robot unmoving until you lose the game on time is all predetermined?

You know how many chess players I've seen NOT move ANY piece when they're low on time...?

If all choices are predetermined (your definition against free will) how can anyone ever have an internal dialogue at all with opposing views? You know, with the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other? What is the evolved necessity toward survivability of constantly arguing one's own "choices" with one's self among ourselves as higher animals?

No that's not what I'm saying. Thanks for not watching the videos, and informing yourself about the discussion. I did not say ANYTHING was "predetermined". You did. What is going on your brain is mostly BELOW the conscious level. That in no way allows for a religious definition of "free will", if the choice is made BEFORE you are conscious of all it's input or even the MAJOR input factors. You really are not up to this board, Pleasy. Maybe there's one for JebusWannaBeBloggersWhoNeverTookAScienceClass. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-09-2013, 07:01 PM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2013 07:29 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 06:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No that's not what I'm saying. Thanks for not watching the videos, and informing yourself about the discussion.

Dude apparently can't be bothered.

(19-09-2013 06:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I did not say ANYTHING was "predetermined". You did. What is going on your brain is mostly BELOW the conscious level. That in no way allows for a religious definition of "free will", if the choice is made BEFORE you are conscious of all it's input or even the MAJOR input factors.

It doesn't necessarily preclude free will if I am willing to expand my concept of "I" to include much much more than what I typically and naively superficially think of as "I".

(19-09-2013 06:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You really are not up to this board, Pleasy.

No, he doesn't appear to be.

#sigh
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19-09-2013, 07:22 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 12:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  My point really is that 'thinking' is not one simple thing...Homo sapiens is special only in that we may have the most complex cognition of life on earth, but that is not yet proven. The evidence that it is so is strong, but only when we have a better understanding of brain and mind can we expect to be able to confirm it.

You sure about that?




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19-09-2013, 07:42 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 07:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 06:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No that's not what I'm saying. Thanks for not watching the videos, and informing yourself about the discussion.

Dude apparently can't be bothered.

(19-09-2013 06:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I did not say ANYTHING was "predetermined". You did. What is going on your brain is mostly BELOW the conscious level. That in no way allows for a religious definition of "free will", if the choice is made BEFORE you are conscious of all it's input or even the MAJOR input factors.

It doesn't necessarily preclude free will if I am willing to expand my concept of "I" to include much much more than what I typically and naively superficially think of as "I".

(19-09-2013 06:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You really are not up to this board, Pleasy.

No, he doesn't appear to be.

I don't disagree with that. Vosur and I came to an understanding about this a while back. But Pleasy has not even admitting there are things going on subconsciously.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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