What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
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19-09-2013, 08:40 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
I'm going to relax in my lazy boy recliner and let my brain do all the reacting and decision making for a while.
I'm not going to stop it from making all those choices that's it's already made.

My son walks into the room and reads the note I left him. He laughs and goes to make some breakfast.
The phone rings and i sit there waiting for my brain to answer it, you know because of all those prior causes that will CAUSE it to answer phone calls every time it hears one. So far, no reactions here. Not even a twitch. I haven't had to exercise any force of will to keep my arm in place. It seems content to not move.

There is a crash outside on the street. I couldn't quite make out the sounds. I feel the urge building inside of me to get up but yet nothing is happening. I wonder why ? I mean, my brain heard the same thing I did. Why isn't it reacting to the stimuli ?

Hmmmm what could the answer be ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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19-09-2013, 08:45 PM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2013 08:48 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 07:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 07:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Dude apparently can't be bothered.


It doesn't necessarily preclude free will if I am willing to expand my concept of "I" to include much much more than what I typically and naively superficially think of as "I".


No, he doesn't appear to be.

I don't disagree with that. Vosur and I came to an understanding about this a while back. But Pleasy has not even admitting there are things going on subconsciously.

Pleasy's a fucking kid with no background in basic shit.

#sigh
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19-09-2013, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2013 09:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 08:40 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I'm going to relax in my lazy boy recliner and let my brain do all the reacting and decision making for a while.
I'm not going to stop it from making all those choices that's it's already made.

My son walks into the room and reads the note I left him. He laughs and goes to make some breakfast.
The phone rings and i sit there waiting for my brain to answer it, you know because of all those prior causes that will CAUSE it to answer phone calls every time it hears one. So far, no reactions here. Not even a twitch. I haven't had to exercise any force of will to keep my arm in place. It seems content to not move.

There is a crash outside on the street. I couldn't quite make out the sounds. I feel the urge building inside of me to get up but yet nothing is happening. I wonder why ? I mean, my brain heard the same thing I did. Why isn't it reacting to the stimuli ?

Hmmmm what could the answer be ?

Neuroscience has proven that humans are not simultaneously fully conscious of ALL the elements that go into making a choice, (which religion requires, by definition for a moral choice). Many of the elements that go into a choice are subconscious, including in your example above. It's a subconscious war. Proven by PET scan. You are not "free" to do ANYTHING at all, (like fly out and see the crash, nor are you "free" to stop it). Your possible range of options are completely limited, and constrained. You are not "free" to do anything, in any sense of the word. In the same sense, you are completely constrained by what is in your memory, and what your brain patterns are. You are not "free" to *think* in patterns you do not already possess.

(And the "moral choice" argument of religious nut jobs who say that humans ARE "free" to perform acts their memories are unaware of, or use brain patterns they do not already possess, is equally preposterous).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-09-2013, 09:18 PM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2013 09:21 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 08:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Pleasy's a fucking kid with no background in basic shit.


Also keep in mind that PJ CAN'T admit that there might be something other than 'freewill' determining our decisions and actions, because that is one of the cornerstones of monotheism. It is one of the last attempted justification for the Hell he believes in. It becomes impossible to not see Hell as anything but the nonexistent capricious farce that it is once you admit that people's decision and actions that would send people there are not entirely 100% under their control or authored by them. If we do not have absolute control over our thoughts processes and decision making, then it destroys the 'freewill' or 'self damnation' defense of Hell.

So he will argue until he's blue in the face, regardless of any evidence, in favor of absolute 'freewill'; because that's what his dogma requires of him.

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19-09-2013, 11:18 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 08:40 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I'm going to relax in my lazy boy recliner and let my brain do all the reacting and decision making for a while.
I'm not going to stop it from making all those choices that's it's already made.

My son walks into the room and reads the note I left him. He laughs and goes to make some breakfast.
The phone rings and i sit there waiting for my brain to answer it, you know because of all those prior causes that will CAUSE it to answer phone calls every time it hears one. So far, no reactions here. Not even a twitch. I haven't had to exercise any force of will to keep my arm in place. It seems content to not move.

There is a crash outside on the street. I couldn't quite make out the sounds. I feel the urge building inside of me to get up but yet nothing is happening. I wonder why ? I mean, my brain heard the same thing I did. Why isn't it reacting to the stimuli ?

Hmmmm what could the answer be ?

I knew there was something odd about you. You have this duality....there is you, and then there is your brain. Like good 'ole Karl Pilkington. He never fails me. Big Grin This relates quite nicely to the topic of free will in a light-hearted way.




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20-09-2013, 06:09 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 08:40 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I'm going to relax in my lazy boy recliner and let my brain do all the reacting and decision making for a while.
I'm not going to stop it from making all those choices that's it's already made.

My son walks into the room and reads the note I left him. He laughs and goes to make some breakfast.
The phone rings and i sit there waiting for my brain to answer it, you know because of all those prior causes that will CAUSE it to answer phone calls every time it hears one. So far, no reactions here. Not even a twitch. I haven't had to exercise any force of will to keep my arm in place. It seems content to not move.

There is a crash outside on the street. I couldn't quite make out the sounds. I feel the urge building inside of me to get up but yet nothing is happening. I wonder why ? I mean, my brain heard the same thing I did. Why isn't it reacting to the stimuli ?

Hmmmm what could the answer be ?

On a typical day you would answer the phone, this is the norm. Why is it different this time? Are we seeing free will in action?

Cause and Effect.
Cause: Closely held belief of free will reviewed.
Effect: Attempt to prove belief.

Why do you think you had the option to answer the phone when you first heard it?

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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20-09-2013, 06:53 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-09-2013 06:09 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 08:40 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I'm going to relax in my lazy boy recliner and let my brain do all the reacting and decision making for a while.
I'm not going to stop it from making all those choices that's it's already made.

My son walks into the room and reads the note I left him. He laughs and goes to make some breakfast.
The phone rings and i sit there waiting for my brain to answer it, you know because of all those prior causes that will CAUSE it to answer phone calls every time it hears one. So far, no reactions here. Not even a twitch. I haven't had to exercise any force of will to keep my arm in place. It seems content to not move.

There is a crash outside on the street. I couldn't quite make out the sounds. I feel the urge building inside of me to get up but yet nothing is happening. I wonder why ? I mean, my brain heard the same thing I did. Why isn't it reacting to the stimuli ?

Hmmmm what could the answer be ?

On a typical day you would answer the phone, this is the norm. Why is it different this time? Are we seeing free will in action?

Cause and Effect.
Cause: Closely held belief of free will reviewed.
Effect: Attempt to prove belief.

Why do you think you had the option to answer the phone when you first heard it?

I have options all the time. I have them because I can assess situations and pick a desired outcome even if the outcome isn't the best option. Or I can decide to not pick any options at all.

I can consciously assess a situation. I can imagine the outcomes from several different choices. I can include information from various sources within my own knowledge and even use creativity in coming up with a fairly original response.

My brain unconsciously stores a great deal of information and minutia that I don't consciously have at my fingertips. Subconscious thoughts and retrieval of past experiences flood my consciousness until something rises up that I can take notice of, like a door bell waking me from my sleep.

Even at this point, I still have the self control to NOT do something or to do something that I didn't do in the past when confronted with the same situation.

This is how we learn from our mistakes. A similar situation arises and we make different choices than we did in the past or sometimes we don't learn and we make the same mistakes. It's the agony from making a mistake that weighs heavily on us so that we don't keep repeating the same mistakes (as if we had no free will).

Assessing situations and making different choices are at the hallmark of learning.
Learning itself requires free will. Learning requires us to abandon natural impulses in favor of making the choice to do something new.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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20-09-2013, 08:38 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-09-2013 06:53 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  My brain unconsciously stores a great deal of information and minutia that I don't consciously have at my fingertips. Subconscious thoughts and retrieval of past experiences flood my consciousness until something rises up that I can take notice of, like a door bell waking me from my sleep.

Even at this point, I still have the self control to NOT do something or to do something that I didn't do in the past when confronted with the same situation.

Sure.

As you say,
(20-09-2013 06:53 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  This is how we learn from our mistakes...

And it is.

'Cept free will ain't got nothing to do with learning, is all.

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20-09-2013, 08:45 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-09-2013 06:53 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 06:09 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  On a typical day you would answer the phone, this is the norm. Why is it different this time? Are we seeing free will in action?

Cause and Effect.
Cause: Closely held belief of free will reviewed.
Effect: Attempt to prove belief.

Why do you think you had the option to answer the phone when you first heard it?

I have options all the time. I have them because I can assess situations and pick a desired outcome even if the outcome isn't the best option. Or I can decide to not pick any options at all.

I can consciously assess a situation. I can imagine the outcomes from several different choices. I can include information from various sources within my own knowledge and even use creativity in coming up with a fairly original response.

My brain unconsciously stores a great deal of information and minutia that I don't consciously have at my fingertips. Subconscious thoughts and retrieval of past experiences flood my consciousness until something rises up that I can take notice of, like a door bell waking me from my sleep.

Even at this point, I still have the self control to NOT do something or to do something that I didn't do in the past when confronted with the same situation.

This is how we learn from our mistakes. A similar situation arises and we make different choices than we did in the past or sometimes we don't learn and we make the same mistakes. It's the agony from making a mistake that weighs heavily on us so that we don't keep repeating the same mistakes (as if we had no free will).

Assessing situations and making different choices are at the hallmark of learning.
Learning itself requires free will. Learning requires us to abandon natural impulses in favor of making the choice to do something new.


FMRI scans can reveal a decision you have made up to 7 seconds 'before' you have made it. For me, that has really placed into doubt the idea of free will:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries...d_decision
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20-09-2013, 10:55 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
Rahn, the difference in opinion is this. You believe at some arbitrary point in the past (five minutes ago picking between orange juice or apple juice in your kitchen) you had the potential to do something other than what you actually did. That in that moment there really were multiple paths. I don't see this as the case. It certainly feels like it, but it makes no sense (unless you subscribe to a multiverse theory).

Your body is a multitude of particles all following the forces of nature to a que. Much like exerting a force on a rock at the top of a mountain will send it crashing down a specific path, influencing a person by stimulating them with a experience inevitably leads them to take specific path. Because you are a collection of particles. Every one of those particles is going succumb to the forces impresses upon them. They care nothing of free will. Evolution has merely equipped our brains with a clever way of perceiving our higher functions.

the big bang occurred 13 billion years ago. Assuming no multiverse, there is a single event. The energy and matter set off in a specific way, going about it's business. What could stop things from following their natural path? Us? We're just another natural entity itself composed of this same matter and energy that was set in it's ways long ago, floating in space. A ripple has no choice where it goes next, no matter how much it can convince itself it's really in control.

I kind of ranted, oh well. We will all agree on free will when we get more sophisticated human-like robots.

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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