What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
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20-09-2013, 11:07 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-09-2013 08:45 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 06:53 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I have options all the time. I have them because I can assess situations and pick a desired outcome even if the outcome isn't the best option. Or I can decide to not pick any options at all.

I can consciously assess a situation. I can imagine the outcomes from several different choices. I can include information from various sources within my own knowledge and even use creativity in coming up with a fairly original response.

My brain unconsciously stores a great deal of information and minutia that I don't consciously have at my fingertips. Subconscious thoughts and retrieval of past experiences flood my consciousness until something rises up that I can take notice of, like a door bell waking me from my sleep.

Even at this point, I still have the self control to NOT do something or to do something that I didn't do in the past when confronted with the same situation.

This is how we learn from our mistakes. A similar situation arises and we make different choices than we did in the past or sometimes we don't learn and we make the same mistakes. It's the agony from making a mistake that weighs heavily on us so that we don't keep repeating the same mistakes (as if we had no free will).

Assessing situations and making different choices are at the hallmark of learning.
Learning itself requires free will. Learning requires us to abandon natural impulses in favor of making the choice to do something new.


FMRI scans can reveal a decision you have made up to 7 seconds 'before' you have made it. For me, that has really placed into doubt the idea of free will:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries...d_decision

In 2007, Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin, put people into a brain scanner in which a display screen flashed a random letter to the person in the scanner. He told them to press a button with either their right or left index fingers whenever they felt the urge, and to remember the letter that was showing on the screen when they made the decision.

A letter is flashed and then 1-10 seconds pass and the person presses a left or right button when they felt the urge to press one or the other.

I would really like to see the in depth details of the study to see if most people pushed the right button when they saw the letter L or maybe many pushed the left button when they saw the letter J and maybe it was random on the letter H.

This looks more like visual shapes guiding someone to make a physical movement.

Or have I read this all wrong ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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20-09-2013, 11:27 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-09-2013 10:55 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  Rahn, the difference in opinion is this. You believe at some arbitrary point in the past (five minutes ago picking between orange juice or apple juice in your kitchen) you had the potential to do something other than what you actually did. That in that moment there really were multiple paths. I don't see this as the case. It certainly feels like it, but it makes no sense (unless you subscribe to a multiverse theory).

Your body is a multitude of particles all following the forces of nature to a que. Much like exerting a force on a rock at the top of a mountain will send it crashing down a specific path, influencing a person by stimulating them with a experience inevitably leads them to take specific path. Because you are a collection of particles. Every one of those particles is going succumb to the forces impresses upon them. They care nothing of free will. Evolution has merely equipped our brains with a clever way of perceiving our higher functions.

the big bang occurred 13 billion years ago. Assuming no multiverse, there is a single event. The energy and matter set off in a specific way, going about it's business. What could stop things from following their natural path? Us? We're just another natural entity itself composed of this same matter and energy that was set in it's ways long ago, floating in space. A ripple has no choice where it goes next, no matter how much it can convince itself it's really in control.

I kind of ranted, oh well. We will all agree on free will when we get more sophisticated human-like robots.

It is the nature of the universe on our human scale that only one action can happen at a time. This fundamental idea doesn't prevent me from making a choice of what that one action will be. The past is a record of the choices I made. That is all.

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21-09-2013, 09:08 AM
What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 02:28 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Fee Will would be defined as the ability to freely chose between two or more options.

This is why Free Will is an illusion.

First proof:
Between options there is a best option formed by your mind. Your mind which has been formed by outside influences (experience) and genetics.
It is irrational to propose that anyone would choose the second best option or worst option. Therefore, the choice was made before the options ever presented themselves. No Free Will.

Second proof:
If we spun time back to the big bang (13.4 billion years ago) and started all over, there is no rational reason to suggest that any event would not happen exactly as it has happened to this day. We would end up with the "exact" same state. It would be irrational for any decision from any species to be made differently - See first proof.

Nothing in your mind is an original thought or action, just a reaction to a outside stimulus which fired the neural network, which produces a reaction based on learning from previous stimulus experience and actions, all based on genetics, which you had no control over.

Translation: An earthworm avoids the sun, because that's what earthworms do.

Proof 1: What do you define as the best option? Many people make choices that are, objectively viewed, not good for them.
perhaps you mean that the best option is subjective, based on the persons opinions.But then evaluating what the best option is, is free will itself.

Proof 2: We cannot turn back time so this does not apply.
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21-09-2013, 10:08 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-09-2013 11:07 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 08:45 PM)BryanS Wrote:  FMRI scans can reveal a decision you have made up to 7 seconds 'before' you have made it. For me, that has really placed into doubt the idea of free will:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries...d_decision

In 2007, Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin, put people into a brain scanner in which a display screen flashed a random letter to the person in the scanner. He told them to press a button with either their right or left index fingers whenever they felt the urge, and to remember the letter that was showing on the screen when they made the decision.

A letter is flashed and then 1-10 seconds pass and the person presses a left or right button when they felt the urge to press one or the other.

I would really like to see the in depth details of the study to see if most people pushed the right button when they saw the letter L or maybe many pushed the left button when they saw the letter J and maybe it was random on the letter H.

This looks more like visual shapes guiding someone to make a physical movement.

Or have I read this all wrong ?

There have been other experiments confirming the effect:
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/...free-will/

The 2007 study I cited really set off debate about this topic and has resulted in more experiments, all of which seem to confirm the result so far that decisions are made in the brain before we are conscious of the decision.
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21-09-2013, 08:02 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
I would think there are two schools of thought in regards to the issue of free will.

But ... does it actually exist?

That depends ...

In my humble opinion, it all goes back to whether or not if you believe that the Big Bang was the origin of existence. If you think it was, then existence- as we know it- is finite because it has a beginning. If it had a beginning, then everything that has occurred throughout history is the direct result of the first spark igniting the Big Bang, and everything that has ever happened in history has been predetermined.

Essentially, this means that nothing is random, and therefore ... there can be no free will. History is merely a chain reaction and everything happened exactly as it should have due to the very first spark.

But on the other hand ...

If you come from the school of thought that the universe is infinite, and that the Big Bang was merely one instance in an infinite series of Big Bangs, then nothing can be predetermined, and therefore everything is random chance. In this case, free will exists for the simple reason that it could not have been influenced by determinism.

And since we have not actually found any boundary to the universe as of yet, the evidence appears to indicate at this time that the universe is infinite.

Therefore at this point in time according to the current state of our knowledge, if we had to keep score in regards to the question of whether or not free will exists, the score would be close, and look like this:

Free Will Exists: 1
No Free Will: 0

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22-09-2013, 02:15 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2013 02:26 AM by absols.)
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
that is a smart observation

anyone can experience freedom existence like u did, if he accepts to deal even with a personnal concern objectively, like the fact that u can kill urself any second is the proof that all are not related for same end and the one reality in abstract perspective is fake just a symbol of existence being a fact but its true reality is freedom

which also explain how evil got absolute powers, of what can abuse freedom while being free, so can take advantage even of itself

so the real issue, in wide free perspective, is the relative character of existence

bc existence is infinite since free, existing can b against itself, bc can step as free mean like infinite

that is why we see all those inventions of selves and stories and fictions and futur and plans very proud subjects shit, that never stop arguing just for the sick pleasure of their means

again what i say always is proven here being right

existence right is principally about superiority, freedom rights to exist when true freedom is superiority

the stand alone respecting itself and anything around and everything while also productive and positive source and conscious constant objective realisations of evolving to true superiority which is freedom absolute fact

like we can see how superiority is painted for us as being a will, which again prove the absolute evil fact

superiority is about absolute freedom not a free sense getting smthg and getting others lives to possess and pretend teaching them anything
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22-09-2013, 07:15 AM
What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
I cannot speak for others, but I DO have free will.
Try to control me and you will be unsuccessful.
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22-09-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(22-09-2013 07:15 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  I cannot speak for others, but I DO have free will.
Try to control me and you will be unsuccessful.

Controlling you is easy, and I am doing it right now.

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22-09-2013, 03:06 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(22-09-2013 02:26 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-09-2013 07:15 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  I cannot speak for others, but I DO have free will.
Try to control me and you will be unsuccessful.

Controlling you is easy, and I am doing it right now.

And I'm controlling everybody. All people posting in this thread are posting at my whim. Provide proof it ain't so.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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22-09-2013, 03:16 PM
What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
To all those who claim to control me. Force me to quote a full sentence of the bible, if you want to prove your claim.
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