What I hate about capitalism
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08-06-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 02:13 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The Ayn Rand thing was out of line, and was not really directed at you since you're not one of that cult (though a good portion of extreme Libertarian/anarchists are) so I apologise and withdraw it since it adds nothing to the conversation and was petty.

Thank You.

Quote:As to your other points I didn't claim that all government is great all the time. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of things the government does on my and your behalf (regardless of your wanting them to do so the fact remains that they are doing so in your name) I still stand by my main point that you skipped over Unregulated Capitalism is one of the more evil inventions of mankind.

My point has been all along.... what unregulated capitalism? Show me examples of an actual, unfettered, laissez faire market in history along with examples of capitalists doing the things you accuse them of doing. That's all I'm saying.

Quote:It leads to Monolithic structures that prevent competition and exploit a now dependant base~[quote]

No, it doesn't. Monopolies don't grow out of laissez fare markets. Again, please provide examples.

[quote](Your Rockefeller for instance did not have the Public's best interests at heart over his railroad stunt he was just breaking the will of a competitor).

Of course not. He had is own best interest at heart, just like people who call themselves government. Are you going to tell me that only virtuous men and women seek government office?

And how does a capitalist serve his own best interests? By creating a product that people want to buy because it provides them with greater value than the money they used to buy it. How do legislators serve their own best interests? By creating laws and having cops go point guns at people to enforce them.

Quote:In the end Governments are accountable to their people but who are Giant Multinationals accountable to? Their Shareholders, their board of directors? Your main stance is you believe that government is held by force (and I'm not arguing the point now) why do you believe that Corporations that are quickly moving to become to big to control (having already become to big to fail) will be any less likely to use said force to further their aims?

Government officials are not accountable to you and I. Especially democratically elected, term limited ones. Do you think that voting them out of office takes anything away from them? By the time they become elected, they're already rich or well on their way to being so and even if you regret voting for one the first day of his term... he still has two, four or six more years to fuck you over before he has to leave office. He doesn't care about you, he cares about the people who got him elected. And who are they? His private market contemporaries who use the guns of the state to profit instead of actually competing in the marketplace. Ergo... the few giant multinationals you're lumping in with the millions of other actual capitalists who work their asses off every day to bring you goods and services that make your life more comfortable and, who must court you to get your business rather than forcing you with the state's guns.

In the end, these multinationals exist only because of the state. In a laissez faire market, they cannot grow that large. They simply can't do it, owing to not being able to control their competition through force of law.

I don't dispute that there are evil people in the market, but they get no purchase without the help of the state. And as I said above, if you have examples of giant, evil, monopolistic robber barons existing in the absence of the state I'm happy to examine them.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-06-2013, 03:03 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 02:44 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(08-06-2013 02:13 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The Ayn Rand thing was out of line, and was not really directed at you since you're not one of that cult (though a good portion of extreme Libertarian/anarchists are) so I apologise and withdraw it since it adds nothing to the conversation and was petty.

Thank You.

Quote:As to your other points I didn't claim that all government is great all the time. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of things the government does on my and your behalf (regardless of your wanting them to do so the fact remains that they are doing so in your name) I still stand by my main point that you skipped over Unregulated Capitalism is one of the more evil inventions of mankind.

My point has been all along.... what unregulated capitalism? Show me examples of an actual, unfettered, laissez faire market in history along with examples of capitalists doing the things you accuse them of doing. That's all I'm saying.

Quote:It leads to Monolithic structures that prevent competition and exploit a now dependant base~[quote]

No, it doesn't. Monopolies don't grow out of laissez fare markets. Again, please provide examples.

[quote](Your Rockefeller for instance did not have the Public's best interests at heart over his railroad stunt he was just breaking the will of a competitor).

Of course not. He had is own best interest at heart, just like people who call themselves government. Are you going to tell me that only virtuous men and women seek government office?

And how does a capitalist serve his own best interests? By creating a product that people want to buy because it provides them with greater value than the money they used to buy it. How do legislators serve their own best interests? By creating laws and having cops go point guns at people to enforce them.

Quote:In the end Governments are accountable to their people but who are Giant Multinationals accountable to? Their Shareholders, their board of directors? Your main stance is you believe that government is held by force (and I'm not arguing the point now) why do you believe that Corporations that are quickly moving to become to big to control (having already become to big to fail) will be any less likely to use said force to further their aims?

Government officials are not accountable to you and I. Especially democratically elected, term limited ones. Do you think that voting them out of office takes anything away from them? By the time they become elected, they're already rich or well on their way to being so and even if you regret voting for one the first day of his term... he still has two, four or six more years to fuck you over before he has to leave office. He doesn't care about you, he cares about the people who got him elected. And who are they? His private market contemporaries who use the guns of the state to profit instead of actually competing in the marketplace. Ergo... the few giant multinationals you're lumping in with the millions of other actual capitalists who work their asses off every day to bring you goods and services that make your life more comfortable and, who must court you to get your business rather than forcing you with the state's guns.

In the end, these multinationals exist only because of the state. In a laissez faire market, they cannot grow that large. They simply can't do it, owing to not being able to control their competition through force of law.

I don't dispute that there are evil people in the market, but they get no purchase without the help of the state. And as I said above, if you have examples of giant, evil, monopolistic robber barons existing in the absence of the state I'm happy to examine them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike,_Inc.

http://slaveryfootprint.org/

A few examples of what corporations do when they are left to their own devices. Don't think they wouldn't buy and sell each and every one of us if it helped the bottom line.

As to the smaller local LLC's thats a different matter altogether. I use the term Corporation in the colloquial sense ie: Multinational mega companies but I am aware that almost every business is an LLC now just because of the way business laws work. Joe's Plumbing and Mike's Pizza shack are not what I am speaking about and about those we probably have identical views (I try to support local businesses as much as I can even when it means paying a little more)

Maybe it's because I live in the rust belt and can see what happens when a big corporation spits out the remains of the people they used to get bigger and more powerful when they no longer serve a purpose that I see that kind of economic warfare as being as bad or worse than anything the Government tries to do.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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08-06-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 03:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike,_Inc.

http://slaveryfootprint.org/

A few examples of what corporations do when they are left to their own devices. Don't think they wouldn't buy and sell each and every one of us if it helped the bottom line.

As to the smaller local LLC's thats a different matter altogether. I use the term Corporation in the colloquial sense ie: Multinational mega companies but I am aware that almost every business is an LLC now just because of the way business laws work. Joe's Plumbing and Mike's Pizza shack are not what I am speaking about and about those we probably have identical views (I try to support local businesses as much as I can even when it means paying a little more)

Maybe it's because I live in the rust belt and can see what happens when a big corporation spits out the remains of the people they used to get bigger and more powerful when they no longer serve a purpose that I see that kind of economic warfare as being as bad or worse than anything the Government tries to do.

So in other words, you don't have any examples of capitalists creating monopolies in the absence of state influence?

Read here about how the Chinese state helps Foxconn and Nike exploit Chinese workers.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-06-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 03:29 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(08-06-2013 03:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike,_Inc.

http://slaveryfootprint.org/

A few examples of what corporations do when they are left to their own devices. Don't think they wouldn't buy and sell each and every one of us if it helped the bottom line.

As to the smaller local LLC's thats a different matter altogether. I use the term Corporation in the colloquial sense ie: Multinational mega companies but I am aware that almost every business is an LLC now just because of the way business laws work. Joe's Plumbing and Mike's Pizza shack are not what I am speaking about and about those we probably have identical views (I try to support local businesses as much as I can even when it means paying a little more)

Maybe it's because I live in the rust belt and can see what happens when a big corporation spits out the remains of the people they used to get bigger and more powerful when they no longer serve a purpose that I see that kind of economic warfare as being as bad or worse than anything the Government tries to do.

So in other words, you don't have any examples of capitalists creating monopolies in the absence of state influence?

Read here about how the Chinese state helps Foxconn and Nike exploit Chinese workers.

You're asking for something in a vacuum and I can give you a low air example. Yes the states where these actions took place are complicit but that does not let the corporation off the hook for their actions. In fact, if anything, it shows what they would do if even that low level of intrusion were removed?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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08-06-2013, 04:24 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 04:00 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You're asking for something in a vacuum and I can give you a low air example. Yes the states where these actions took place are complicit but that does not let the corporation off the hook for their actions.

No, no, no, my friend. I'm not asserting complacency on the state's part. I'm asserting blatant collusion. For instance, up until a few years ago (I forget the actual date) a Chinese worker could be thrown in jail for twelve years for the crime of collective bargaining. Or, rather, an attempt at organizing same. That's hardly complacency. And even now, state officials run unions, not workers. So who do you think has more influence on those bureaucrats? Dirt poor Chinese workers or wealthy corporate executives who can move their factories to another country, thereby taking away a portion of the state's tax revenue?

And just to clarify, I'm full on board with making corporate executives completely liable for their crimes against others. That should be clear, since I don't put people in different boxes of moral accountability.

I don't accept that cops, soldiers, government bureaucrats, business owners, clergymen, sports stars or even my wife should held any less morally accountable for their actions than are you and I.

Quote:In fact, if anything, it shows what they would do if even that low level of intrusion were removed?

How so? How is it that a man can shoot just as many people without a gun as he can with one? That's essentially what you're asserting when you claim (with no evidence as yet) that villainous capitalists could do exactly the same thing without the state's help as they do with it.


Hint: There was a short period of time in late seventeenth century America where the state was a laissez faire minarchy. Perhaps you could find some villains there? Consider

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-06-2013, 04:47 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 04:24 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(08-06-2013 04:00 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You're asking for something in a vacuum and I can give you a low air example. Yes the states where these actions took place are complicit but that does not let the corporation off the hook for their actions.

No, no, no, my friend. I'm not asserting complacency on the state's part. I'm asserting blatant collusion. For instance, up until a few years ago (I forget the actual date) a Chinese worker could be thrown in jail for twelve years for the crime of collective bargaining. Or, rather, an attempt at organizing same. That's hardly complacency. And even now, state officials run unions, not workers. So who do you think has more influence on those bureaucrats? Dirt poor Chinese workers or wealthy corporate executives who can move their factories to another country, thereby taking away a portion of the state's tax revenue?

And just to clarify, I'm full on board with making corporate executives completely liable for their crimes against others. That should be clear, since I don't put people in different boxes of moral accountability.

I don't accept that cops, soldiers, government bureaucrats, business owners, clergymen, sports stars or even my wife should held any less morally accountable for their actions than are you and I.

Quote:In fact, if anything, it shows what they would do if even that low level of intrusion were removed?

How so? How is it that a man can shoot just as many people without a gun as he can with one? That's essentially what you're asserting when you claim (with no evidence as yet) that villainous capitalists could do exactly the same thing without the state's help as they do with it.


Hint: There was a short period of time in late seventeenth century America where the state was a laissez faire minarchy. Perhaps you could find some villains there? Consider

Can you justify the actions of Carnegie when he ordered the pinkertons to open fire on striking workers?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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08-06-2013, 04:49 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
Reverant77x, thank you for taking up this task. bbeljefe and his libertarian beliefs are troubling to me but daunting in that I would find it difficult to take the time to argue with him.

I might ask that where is one to find the capital to open the store which was to compete with the major marketers as presented in bbeljefe's first post. Competition on any scale demand capital on a large scale. Capital on a large scale demands power. Where does that power come from. From the state certainly, from the people not. As long as power does not come from the people it is not pure. When power comes from capital/the state it is flawed.

bbeljefe you should think about how intertwined capital and the state are.
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08-06-2013, 05:37 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
power begets power --> too much power in too few hands ensues revolution --> revolution resets the board and restarts the game for power --> power begets power...

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08-06-2013, 06:00 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
This is why I can't stand capitalism, sometimes!

[Image: coronababe3.jpg]

I know Corona tastes like it was brewed in a boot...
but I almost want one right now Dodgy

That's a joke, but there's plenty of commercials cluttering up TV, that very subtly imply you need brand X to be cool, or to be up to date technologically, etc... Imply your something less without whatever it is someone else has.
Shameless consumerism. I say flush it.

...but I gotta ask this. In nature the big fish eat the little fish, so...? Is Wal-Mart really evil for swallowing up every mom-n-pop store within 50 miles of one of their super-centers? I don't know. But I still say, at least, regulate the piss out of 'em. Because if you don't they'd swallow the world if they could!

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08-06-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 06:00 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  This is why I can't stand capitalism, sometimes!

[Image: coronababe3.jpg]

I know Corona tastes like it was brewed in a boot...
but I almost want one right now Dodgy

That's a joke, but there's plenty of commercials cluttering up TV, that very subtly imply you need brand X to be cool, or to be up to date technologically, etc... Imply your something less without whatever it is someone else has.
Shameless consumerism. I say flush it.

...but I gotta ask this. In nature the big fish eat the little fish, so...? Is Wal-Mart really evil for swallowing up every mom-n-pop store within 50 miles of one of their super-centers? I don't know. But I still say, at least, regulate the piss out of 'em. Because if you don't they'd swallow the world if they could!

So who all clicked my slavery link and took the quiz? I scored a 29 and am not sure if thats horrible or extra terrible.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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