What I hate about capitalism
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08-06-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 04:47 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Can you justify the actions of Carnegie when he ordered the pinkertons to open fire on striking workers?

I don't condone the initiation of the use of force by anyone. I don't understand why that's so hard for people to get. Huh

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-06-2013, 09:04 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 08:35 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(08-06-2013 04:47 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Can you justify the actions of Carnegie when he ordered the pinkertons to open fire on striking workers?

I don't condone the initiation of the use of force by anyone. I don't understand why that's so hard for people to get. Huh

I get that which is why I don't understand your position on this. It's the only thing that is out of character for your views. I actually think your position on that is admirable, if naive, and one of the reasons I like talking politics with you.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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08-06-2013, 10:55 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 09:04 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I get that which is why I don't understand your position on this. It's the only thing that is out of character for your views. I actually think your position on that is admirable, if naive, and one of the reasons I like talking politics with you.

Thank you. I enjoy talking politics with you as well. You're a pretty civil guy... as statists go. Tongue

So I'm confused. Not that that's anything new but... what is it about my position that is a) hard to understand and b) naive?

I mean, I don't see what's hard to understand about not condoning the initiation of force by anyone. That doesn't mean you can't defend yourself from an attack and, it doesn't mean a collective can't defend itself from attack. It just means that no one can be the original aggressor.

As for naivety, I don't agitate for an end to the state this week, this month, this year or even this century. I know full well the implications of abolishing the state now and I know the implications of ending the welfare state and the warfare state with any amount of haste. I won't elaborate here but I'm happy to share my thoughts on the matter if you're interested.

What I'm agitating for is a gradual change in the mindset of society writ large. That can't happen overnight or even, in a lifetime. It could happen in one generation but not with the current living generations and probably not with their direct progeny. This will take 150-200 years to happen, and it will only happen if people like myself continue to point out the inherent violent nature of the state to those who are alive today.

In the end, the transition to stateless societies will happen in exactly the same manner that the transition to atheism is happening. Through education.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-06-2013, 11:22 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 10:55 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(08-06-2013 09:04 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I get that which is why I don't understand your position on this. It's the only thing that is out of character for your views. I actually think your position on that is admirable, if naive, and one of the reasons I like talking politics with you.

Thank you. I enjoy talking politics with you as well. You're a pretty civil guy... as statists go. Tongue

So I'm confused. Not that that's anything new but... what is it about my position that is a) hard to understand and b) naive?

I mean, I don't see what's hard to understand about not condoning the initiation of force by anyone. That doesn't mean you can't defend yourself from an attack and, it doesn't mean a collective can't defend itself from attack. It just means that no one can be the original aggressor.

As for naivety, I don't agitate for an end to the state this week, this month, this year or even this century. I know full well the implications of abolishing the state now and I know the implications of ending the welfare state and the warfare state with any amount of haste. I won't elaborate here but I'm happy to share my thoughts on the matter if you're interested.

What I'm agitating for is a gradual change in the mindset of society writ large. That can't happen overnight or even, in a lifetime. It could happen in one generation but not with the current living generations and probably not with their direct progeny. This will take 150-200 years to happen, and it will only happen if people like myself continue to point out the inherent violent nature of the state to those who are alive today.

In the end, the transition to stateless societies will happen in exactly the same manner that the transition to atheism is happening. Through education.

My confusion is with your stance that if a company in China uses the fact that the government there is corrupt to set up a slave labor camp (or as good as) the government of China is bad (which I agree with) but the corporation bears no fault for their actions.

Noone is forcing Nike and Apple to use slave labor. In fact Apple could make their products in America paying triple the minimum wage and still be the second most successful company in the world. We as a society decided (at the end of a gun yes) that Slavery was wrong and evil and shall never again be practiced but that doesn't apply to you if you make shoes or electronics?

Government corruption is wrong and evil and should be rooted out, but corporations are often times as corrupt and evil as an out of control government but they have an advantage of being able to hop borders and hide their evil.

Also to everyone that wished me well for debating The Boss here, this is a long running debate among friends. Almost from the first day I joined this forums he and I have been butting heads on the role and worth of government. I love talking with someone like BB because he has a different point of view than me (I hate just nodding my head in agreement over politics it's just boring) and he can back his views up with evidence (as I try to do with mine) He's not just an empty suit or an echo chamber regurgitating the Fox news headlines he has a well thought out and (from his point of view) a correct position on what he speaks about. That being said some of the stuff he says does make me want to slam my head on my desk but thats when I call him on it and we begin the debate all over again.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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08-06-2013, 11:50 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 11:22 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  My confusion is with your stance that if a company in China uses the fact that the government there is corrupt to set up a slave labor camp (or as good as) the government of China is bad (which I agree with) but the corporation bears no fault for their actions.

I don't hold the company faultless for exploiting people. I hold the company faultless for leaving an oppressive environment. If a company flees US regulation for Chinese exploitation, they don't have my support.

Quote:Noone is forcing Nike and Apple to use slave labor.

I concur.

Quote:In fact Apple could make their products in America paying triple the minimum wage and still be the second most successful company in the world.

I disagree, but if you have data to support that claim, I'm interested in reviewing it.

Quote:We as a society decided (at the end of a gun yes) that Slavery was wrong and evil and shall never again be practiced but that doesn't apply to you if you make shoes or electronics?

You're partly correct. Society writ large did decide that slavery was immoral but the guns were only pointed at those who refused to stop owning slaves... after abolitionists lobbied the state enough that it stopped enforcing slavery. Had the abolitionists not grown enough in number, there would still be state enforced slavery. And yes, slavery is immoral regardless the product.

Quote:Government corruption is wrong and evil and should be rooted out, but corporations are often times as corrupt and evil as an out of control government but they have an advantage of being able to hop borders and hide their evil.

Are you positing that the US government hasn't hopped borders to expand its evil? Do you know how many military bases the US government has abroad? Do you think the US still needs military bases in Japan.... almost three quarters of a century after Japan was decimated by its bombs?

Quote:Also to everyone that wished me well for debating The Boss here, this is a long running debate among friends. Almost from the first day I joined this forums he and I have been butting heads on the role and worth of government. I love talking with someone like BB because he has a different point of view than me (I hate just nodding my head in agreement over politics it's just boring) and he can back his views up with evidence (as I try to do with mine) He's not just an empty suit or an echo chamber regurgitating the Fox news headlines he has a well thought out and (from his point of view) a correct position on what he speaks about. That being said some of the stuff he says does make me want to slam my head on my desk but thats when I call him on it and we begin the debate all over again.

I think we should get a room, you and I... Girl_nails

I'm wearing nothing but my pink banana hammock. Banana_zorro

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08-06-2013, 11:54 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(08-06-2013 07:53 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Capitalism leads directly to Monopoly unless it is legislated to prevent such.

Said every, monopolizing, lobbyist ever.

Politicians constantly promote "fair market laws". They claim to protect businesses from "unfair" competition.

In many locations, especially cities, you need a permit to open a food stall. These permits tend to be limited in number, as well as costly. The excuse is that it's unfair for restaurants to pay upkeep on buildings, whereas food stalls are able to operate much more cheaply. This discourages people from eating at restaurants, and causes economic hardship for everyone. (This obviously isn't true, but it's the common excuse that's used).

Here's a story about a Michigan boy who's hot dog stand was shut down.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/27...11025.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...MK9Hwtzu8U

Eventually, this boy and his family ended up homeless.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-5749...dog-stand/

It's these "fair market" policies that lead to lemonade stands being shut down. (Do I really have to pull up sources for this one?)

A lot of people argued that the government shouldn't bully children. They argue that they should just let the kids open their businesses. But why should we only protect children? Shouldn't anyone be allowed to open up a business?

It's been years since I read the story, and I can't find it for the life of me. One woman owned a local ice cream store that used fresh fruits in their ice cream. A health inspector told her that she needed to use artificial flavoring or she would be shut down. The excuse is that, and I paraphrase, "fresh fruits can go bad quickly, and therefore there's a slim chance this shop will pass future health inspections if there isn't a change."

----

There's this idea that monopolies are inherently bad. The reason people dislike monopolies is because customers don't have an option to buy cheaper alternatives.

But monopolies aren't inherently bad, they're just usually the result of bad policies.

Monopolies in a corporatist market tend to exist because corporations fund politicians who create laws that destroy or prohibit competition.

But what about free-market monopolies? I'm not going to argue that free-market monopolies are impossible, but they're highly improbable.

The only way to obtain a monopoly in a free-market is to produce affordable, high quality, goods that competitors can't match. But we still have a monopoly in which customers don't have the option to buy cheaper alternatives, isn't this still a problem? Well, no. Remember what I just said. To obtain a free-market monopoly, you would have to provide affordable, and quality, goods that can't be matched. This means the best valued good that would exist in a varied market, becomes the only good in the market.

Imagine if Jack and Tom decided to sell shirts. Jack sells his shirts for 5$, John sells his shirts for 20$. Out of 100 customers, Jack sells to 90 of them. John only sells to 10 of the customers. Because Jack sold his shirts at such a lower cost, John can't afford to stay in business. Now Jack has a monopoly! How did Jack gain the monopoly? By selling cheaper shirts, and who's going to argue that this is a bad thing?!

But what keeps monopolies from being common in a free-market society? Companies tend to be very innovative. Competitors often mirror successful companies, which allows them to become more efficient and sell better valued goods as well.

Going back to Jack and John, John would likely find a way to produce cheaper shirts, keeping him in business. But what if John can't figure out how to create cheaper shirts? What if Jack decides to raise his prices to 20$ after John goes out of business? Well, someone else will get involved, and sell 20$ shirts, or 18$ shirts, or 22$ shirts, and they will compete with Jack. Jack can always drop his price back down, long enough to starve the competition, but he'll be forced to keep those prices down because people will always jump back into the market as soon as he raises said prices.

But there's a lot more to the market than simply price and quality. There are many different factors in which a person decides to buy a product. But honestly, the specifics aren't too important. What's important is if people get what they want. Some people buy more expensive products because they are better quality, or because they have always had a good experience with that company, or because the company is reliable, or because the customer support is good, or maybe because they just want to prove they're able to afford more expensive things and they want to flaunt. The free market doesn't discriminate.

---

OP, you're complaining that the supermarket is selling their food cheaper than their competition, because the competition has to pay for shelf space (whereas the supermarket does not). This might sound unfair to the company who has to buy the shelf space, but the store doesn't have to sell that company's products at all if they don't want to.

Let's not forget to mention the customers, who now have the option to buy cheaper goods! This allows them to save more money to spend on other goods they need/want.

If there's any question you answer, answer this one. Why does Coles continue to sell their competition's brand of food? Why don't they just take their competitors off the shelves completely so the only choice is their own brand name products?
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09-06-2013, 09:50 AM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2013 09:59 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: What I hate about capitalism
I don't agree with the free market stuff, because the first thing a big business does in a free market is create a government equivalent or do things that eliminates a free market so it can secure itself as the main monopoly. For that reason a free market can never exist and if it ever does it goes away pretty quickly. You free market types are never satisisfied with any examples of countries that tried to adopt free market policies for that very reason.

How do you think we got to this point? We are here now... Businesses fighting each other for control over the government is where we are at.

Companies don't like competing and WILL DO ANYTHING to secure their dominant position. It's more profitable not to fight and to eliminate competition and stop new competition from getting started.

This isn't the only weakness with the free market arguments. It's just one of the obvious oversights.

If you try answering with more free market arguments try to summarise it and avoid wall of text syndrome and 1billion linked references syndrome. It doesn't help at all.



Coles sells the competitions products because Coles makes money selling the competitions products alongside its own. To them it's like being a stockbroker. They cannot lose. The competition pays shelf rental and Coles takes a commission on all sales. The Coles brand products rake in extra profit and cut into other companys sales. It's win win for Coles.

A monopoly is where it's headed. Coles and Woolworths own the prime real estate at all populated areas. They have their buildings and distribution networks already established.

There is no way to muscle in on that unless you are super rich and can front the billions in startup money.

Yeah, it's cheap for now... When the competition goes away... What then?

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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09-06-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(09-06-2013 09:50 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  I don't agree with the free market stuff, because the first thing a big business does in a free market is create a government equivalent or do things that eliminates a free market so it can secure itself as the main monopoly. For that reason a free market can never exist and if it ever does it goes away pretty quickly. You free market types are never satisisfied with any examples of countries that tried to adopt free market policies for that very reason.

How do you think we got to this point? We are here now... Businesses fighting each other for control over the government is where we are at.

Companies don't like competing and WILL DO ANYTHING to secure their dominant position. It's more profitable not to fight and to eliminate competition and stop new competition from getting started.

This isn't the only weakness with the free market arguments. It's just one of the obvious oversights.

If you try answering with more free market arguments try to summarise it and avoid wall of text syndrome and 1billion linked references syndrome. It doesn't help at all.



Coles sells the competitions products because Coles makes money selling the competitions products alongside its own. To them it's like being a stockbroker. They cannot lose. The competition pays shelf rental and Coles takes a commission on all sales. The Coles brand products rake in extra profit and cut into other companys sales. It's win win for Coles.

A monopoly is where it's headed. Coles and Woolworths own the prime real estate at all populated areas. They have their buildings and distribution networks already established.

There is no way to muscle in on that unless you are super rich and can front the billions in startup money.

Yeah, it's cheap for now... When the competition goes away... What then?


Easy answer, no WOT, no links.

"There is no way to muscle in on that unless you are super rich and can front the billions in startup money."

Why is that?

"Businesses fighting each other for control over the government is where we are at."

I've said it before. What free market?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-06-2013, 11:18 AM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
I like that I'm no longer "the crazy guy who doesn't understand economics" anymore. Thanks bbeljefe, I have passed the torch to you my friend.

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09-06-2013, 12:22 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
No, you know what I hate about capitalism?





We need a mixed economy.

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