What I hate about capitalism
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09-06-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(09-06-2013 04:13 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-06-2013 04:04 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  So Chas was at least partially correct in saying electing officials willing to regulate without concern for their pocket books could help? Just as the regulations they'd enact could help? One might try to make the argument that regulations bought and paid for by those who are supposedly being regulated means there are no real regulations at all. And that some real ones popping up would be welcome.

Chas was correct to the degree that it is correct that if everyone had a unicorn to ride, we wouldn't need roads.

But still, "benevolent" government officials have the power to point guns at people. That's not an effective way to solve complex social problems and to be sure, it is not a moral way to solve anything.

Without government regulation, how do we stop companies poisoning the water supply by fracking?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-06-2013, 04:42 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(09-06-2013 04:13 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-06-2013 04:04 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  So Chas was at least partially correct in saying electing officials willing to regulate without concern for their pocket books could help? Just as the regulations they'd enact could help? One might try to make the argument that regulations bought and paid for by those who are supposedly being regulated means there are no real regulations at all. And that some real ones popping up would be welcome.

Chas was correct to the degree that it is correct that if everyone had a unicorn to ride, we wouldn't need roads.

But still, "benevolent" government officials have the power to point guns at people. That's not an effective way to solve complex social problems and to be sure, it is not a moral way to solve anything.

There are no guns, or unicorns, in a prison cell. Coincidentally, there's less opportunity for the person in the cell to poison peoples water supply! Ofcourse, the guy who authorized fracking within an innapropriate distance to a daycare won't go to prison so long as there's no law prohibiting him from doing just that.

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09-06-2013, 05:35 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(09-06-2013 04:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-06-2013 04:13 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Chas was correct to the degree that it is correct that if everyone had a unicorn to ride, we wouldn't need roads.

But still, "benevolent" government officials have the power to point guns at people. That's not an effective way to solve complex social problems and to be sure, it is not a moral way to solve anything.

Without government regulation, how do we stop companies poisoning the water supply by fracking?

How do suppose it's being stopped now? Videos of things that were prevented don't show up on Youtube, do they?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-06-2013, 05:37 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(09-06-2013 05:35 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-06-2013 04:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  Without government regulation, how do we stop companies poisoning the water supply by fracking?

How do suppose it's being stopped now? Videos of things that were prevented don't show up on Youtube, do they?

You didn't answer the question.

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09-06-2013, 05:39 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(09-06-2013 04:42 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  There are no guns, or unicorns, in a prison cell. Coincidentally, there's less opportunity for the person in the cell to poison peoples water supply! Ofcourse, the guy who authorized fracking within an innapropriate distance to a daycare won't go to prison so long as there's no law prohibiting him from doing just that.

Yeah, and there's no restitution in prison either. What there is in prison is violence and rape.

You gleeful attitude toward human suffering and punitive punishment is the reason why you're so scared of others. It's also why you can't imagine how people can interact peacefully without guns pointed at them.

It's called projecting. Wink

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09-06-2013, 05:42 PM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2013 05:51 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: What I hate about capitalism
I don't know what caused the attraction to this thread for free market anarchists.

I'm really sick of people who think economics is simple and they have all the answers. It's bullshit, but thats how the free market people sell themselves. They present themselves like know it all economics professors. They have the answer to everything and it's "free market."

Get ready for another 10 chapters in a post about how free market fixes everything that is wrong in the world... It's all so simple... If only we ignorant stupid peasants wallowing in the mud could understand it.

The free market is based on evolution and natural selection (predator, prey, and parasites, etc.)
Is evolution perfect or fair? No... Do we want to model our society on evolution? No...
I don't want to live in a society totally based on evolution. It would suck for most people.

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09-06-2013, 05:49 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(09-06-2013 05:42 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  I don't know what caused the attraction to this thread for free market anarchists.

I'm really sick of people who think economics is simple and they have all the answers. It's bullshit, but thats how the free market people sell themselves. They present themselves like know it all economics professors. They have the answer to everything and it's "free market."

Get ready for another 10 chapters in a post about how free market fixes everything that is wrong in the world... It's all so simple... If only we ignorant stupid peasants wallowing in the mud could understand it.

I know right? I mean, it's not like a Christian makes a thread called Why I hate Atheism and a bunch of atheists don't dogpile him for a 200 page rant fest, is it?

Fucking picky fucks, we anarchists.... people spit on truth and then call us arrogant fucking know it alls for having spent thousands of hours studying economics, philosophy and politics over a period of a few decades.

Some of them have even owned businesses and that makes them think they know what it's like to own a business.

Arrogant fucks!

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-06-2013, 06:07 PM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2013 06:17 PM by Nemo.)
RE: What I hate about capitalism
Quote:You are under the assumption that people have equal opportunity, which they do not. Your lack of understanding about the modern issue of wealth inequality is that it is unreasonably skewed. If you even bothered to watch the video, the ideal still saw differences in the financial hierarchy, the transition to wealth was simply more fair.

The premise of the video is that there is wealth inequality. It doesn't actually argue why wealth inequality is a bad thing. It does, however, stress that wealth inequality is bad. What the video deems to be more fair is arbitrary. Why do we need more people in the higher brackets? What difference will that make?

Everything in the video, by itself, is 100% useless. You CAN NOT argue that wealth inequality is bad if you're going to completely ignore everyone's standard of living. More importantly, the video failed to explain who falls in each bracket.

Lastly, and I repeat this yet again (since it bears repeating), wealth inequality can be the result of a number of different things. Wealth inequality is merely the end result of policy, it doesn't actually explain whether a policy is good or bad.

You're right, not everyone has the same opportunity to be successful. This is a shame. How unfair it is for those born to poor families, or abusive families, when successful people often come from successful families? I'm fully aware of this, but I believe we should help everyone to the best of our ability.

Quote:Again, this post simply demonstrates your not even watching the video. Nowhere does it say that inequality is bad. It says that the massive gaps in between the classes is bad, which it is.

Often when people talk about wealth inequality, they're referring to the wealth gap. This is why I used the words "wealth inequality" instead of "wealth gap". I could have been more clear.

A huge wealth gap? Guess what, doesn't mean a damn thing by itself. If you see a huge wealth gap, but you know nothing else about the society it represents, then you'll be a fool to assume the society is worse off for it.

Quote:Let's say that Tom sells his shirts for $20, and because he was able to destroy any other businesses in the sector by using drastically lower prices by using cheap layer overseas, he is able to control the entire market. A monopoly. Jack can't even get into the shirt-making business.

Woops, I said Tom instead of John.

You're arguing that cheap labor is a bad thing. But it depends on what the cheap labor is. If it's slave labor, obviously it's bad - but that's not free-market capitalism since it's based on coercion.

If the labor is voluntary, then there isn't an issue.

You talked about John using cheap labor to produce 20$ shirts, and Jack having a hard time competing. Jack is selling his shirts for 5$, so he's definitely a great contender.

I'm going to assume you meant to say Jack was using cheap labor to produce his 5$ shirts. It depends on what that cheap labor is. If Jack is using slaves to produce the labor, then it isn't a free market. If it's voluntary, then there isn't an issue what-so-ever.

Let's say you raise the price of Jack's shirts to 15$, that way, John can compete. All you're doing is hurting the economy. Now customers have to pay 15$ for shirts instead of 5$. That's 10$ more they have to pay for shirts, and 10$ less they can spend on other goods. And the producers of the other goods are getting screwed over as well.

Cheap oversea labor isn't a bad thing, because it allows us to buy goods more cheaply and to invest our money elsewhere to stimulate the economy.

Quote:Again, you misunderstand both the video and my point. It is not simply about people having more money. Socialism is both unfair and unintuitive, which is stated in the video. It is arguing that Jack became so incredibly rich that he is able to manipulate the market and control the government in order to secure his future, thereby destroying equal opportunity, for the rest of his life.

It's been a year since I watched the video you linked, and I'll admit I didn't feel like watching it again. So I apologize if I get the video wrong.

But if what you say is true, then you have ZERO reason to dislike capitalism, since the video obviously isn't talking about capitalism. Again, this is YET ANOTHER straw man argument. This is another example of people attacking the free-market when they should be attacking corporatism.

It's frustrating when people can't tell the difference between the free market and corporatism.

Quote:This is irrelevant when contrasted with what is actually happening.

Actually, it's plenty relevant. If you don't address why there's a huge wealth gap, or wealth inequality, then you're simply assuming that wealth inequality is inherently bad. It leaves no room for wealth inequality to be either a good thing, or a neutral thing.

If wealth inequality exists, but those at tome benefited society, then you have no argument. And as much as many of the richest people don't deserve to be on the very top, they still benefit society more than most. It does reflect what is actually going on quite well.

The problem is that people aren't concerned with whether or not the top percent are benefiting society or not. They're against the wealth gap simply because it exists. I'm arguing that it's okay to have a wealth gap, and that the problem may lie elsewhere.

Quote:Please watch the video.

Replace everything I said about income inequality with "wealth gap", because my point remains exactly the same.

Quote:If that were so, you'd be agreeing with both me and the video. Welcome to crony capitalist America, baby.

Crony-capitalism is NOT the same as capitalism.

Quote:Ah, the good old pipe dream of anarcho-capitalism. It makes Marxism actually seem possible.

I'm sorry, but a person who doesn't understand the difference between corporatism and capitalism has absolutely no room to talk.

You already proved you can't distinguish between the two.

---

I would also like to add that in a free-market society, people are still held accountable for their actions. If you sell a product that is dangerously faulty to an unaware customer, you may be held accountable and find yourself with a lawsuit. Of course, there are a lot of grey lines - but accountability does exist.

It's funny, saying we support capitalism because we think we know everything. This couldn't be further from the truth. If you intend on controlling the market, then aren't you the one claiming infallible knowledge about the market? The reason I support a free-market is because I believe in an open marketplace in which people are allowed to choose what they do for business, and who they do business with. If you think a person's idea is bad, don't do business with them.
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09-06-2013, 06:12 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(09-06-2013 05:49 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(09-06-2013 05:42 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  I don't know what caused the attraction to this thread for free market anarchists.

I'm really sick of people who think economics is simple and they have all the answers. It's bullshit, but thats how the free market people sell themselves. They present themselves like know it all economics professors. They have the answer to everything and it's "free market."

Get ready for another 10 chapters in a post about how free market fixes everything that is wrong in the world... It's all so simple... If only we ignorant stupid peasants wallowing in the mud could understand it.

I know right? I mean, it's not like a Christian makes a thread called Why I hate Atheism and a bunch of atheists don't dogpile him for a 200 page rant fest, is it?

Fucking picky fucks, we anarchists.... people spit on truth and then call us arrogant fucking know it alls for having spent thousands of hours studying economics, philosophy and politics over a period of a few decades.

Some of them have even owned businesses and that makes them think they know what it's like to own a business.

Arrogant fucks!

Sorry, was editing my post before I saw your reply...

Well I don't mean to diminish your knowledge in economics, etc. I'm just saying even if you spend your whole life dedicated to study in economics you still won't know enough to have all the answers to fix the world economy. Sorry. Thats what I believe.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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09-06-2013, 09:28 PM
RE: What I hate about capitalism
(09-06-2013 06:12 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  Sorry, was editing my post before I saw your reply...

Well I don't mean to diminish your knowledge in economics, etc. I'm just saying even if you spend your whole life dedicated to study in economics you still won't know enough to have all the answers to fix the world economy. Sorry. Thats what I believe.

It's all good. I appreciate your candor.

I just wish people could see that what they're calling capitalism isn't capitalism. A plumber who goes to work for a large plumbing company but supplies his own truck and all of his own tools is more of a capitalist than anyone at AIG or GM or Coles or... name any other fortune 500 company.

Hell, if you actually work for a living in a trade that provides value to someone else, you're more of a capitalist than those people. You seek to profit from the labor you sell to your employer and if it costs you more to get to work and do the job than the job pays, you can't agree to the transaction (and hopefully won't). That's capitalism.

Guys who go around on trash day picking scrap metal out of trash cans and reselling it are more capitalist than those fortune 500 fucks. eight year olds who sell lemonade on their block are more capitalist.

I'll stop now, for fear of laboring the point.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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