What IS morality, really?
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25-06-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(25-06-2016 11:46 AM)neilxt Wrote:  
(25-06-2016 12:40 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Let's say you belong to a community where homosexuality is promoted as being morally wrong. Does that mean, as a member of this community, that you must believe that homosexuality is wrong? OR do you still have the ability to hold your own belief on the matter?

Interesting thought. There is a considerable body of thought, which includes me, who think that's at the root of the pedophile priests problem.
I'm not sure what you mean by this comment.

(25-06-2016 11:46 AM)neilxt Wrote:  No man has only one community. family, friends, city, state, nation, church, religion. Your personal experience and intelligence will influence which of those carries more weight but all moral values however big or small or petty, I out it to you, can be shown to come from and be a community of some sort. thay don't tell us anything about what's right but they tell us a lot about what communities a person identifies with and how strong they are in his psyche.
How does a person (people can be women as well as men BTW, also boys and girls) receive their morals from a community? Who from the community presents it to them? Do they have to sign something?

Of course ridiculous questions, but I think your position is ridiculous.
We are influenced by our surroundings, we watch tv, movies, we read the newspaper, our friends influence us, and they are also influenced by these things as well. But still, we each have our own beliefs (or lack of). Morality is an individual's beliefs albeit, having been influenced by their own experiences of the world around them.

There is no community morality. Unless of course you belong to a community which claims to have an authority on such matters i.e. a church.
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25-06-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(25-06-2016 08:51 AM)neilxt Wrote:  
(21-06-2016 04:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Much like pornography, I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
Much like pornography it gives some people a hardon to like something they think they're supposed to hate.

Are you saying that morality gives some people a hard on? Consider
And that these same people like morality, but they should hate it? Consider

I don't think your analogy works very well. Morality doesn't make me horny. But I can't speak for everybody, I guess. Unsure

Oh and by the way, why we should hate pornography? I mean, you're not saying it in the sense of "it's not my cup of tea", you're saying we should hate it. Why?

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26-06-2016, 02:09 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(25-06-2016 02:50 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(25-06-2016 11:46 AM)neilxt Wrote:  Interesting thought. There is a considerable body of thought, which includes me, who think that's at the root of the pedophile priests problem.
I'm not sure what you mean by this comment.
"Pedophile priests" are not really pedophiles because the targets are adolescent boys not children. That would make the priests homosexual predators, not pedophiles. There is a theory that many people join the priesthood in the first place in order to try to suppress their incipient homosexuality which they consider a sin. I think there may be some truth in that which is funny because that pretty much exemplifies the tongue i cheek example you were positing as a "doesn't happen" counter.

(25-06-2016 02:50 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How does a person (people can be women as well as men BTW, also boys and girls) receive their morals from a community? Who from the community presents it to them? Do they have to sign something?

Of course ridiculous questions,
You're trying to make them sound ridiculous but they are actually not. It's the same place culture comes from. In fact they might even be 2 faces of the same coin. "Common knowledge" likewise.

Quote:There is no community morality. Unless of course you belong to a community which claims to have an authority on such matters i.e. a church.
Then where do you think it comes from? Secular westerners think large parts of Arab/Islamic culture such as FGM are intrinsically immoral. Yet large swathes of that population indulge in male genital mutilation quite obliviously and some segments have parties at a bris to celebrate where singing and dancing and drinking may occur which the same Arabs would think immoral. Islamic texts don't require FGM so where in fact DOES it come from?
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26-06-2016, 02:16 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(26-06-2016 02:09 PM)neilxt Wrote:  "Pedophile priests" are not really pedophiles because the targets are adolescent boys not children. That would make the priests homosexual predators, not pedophiles. There is a theory that many people join the priesthood in the first place in order to try to suppress their incipient homosexuality which they consider a sin. I think there may be some truth in that which is funny because that pretty much exemplifies the tongue i cheek example you were positing as a "doesn't happen" counter.

Dude, are you like all NAMbLA and shit? Just asking.

#sigh
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26-06-2016, 02:18 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(25-06-2016 03:48 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Are you saying that morality gives some people a hard on? Consider
And that these same people like morality, but they should hate it? Consider
I was trying to fold in a crack about some people getting their kicks complaining about other people's morals. You're right, it doesn't work. It got tied up in too many negatives and I should have just cut bait and bailed but I didn't.
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26-06-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
The language was so much easier when people would use the word for those preistly types like pederast which actually is the fitting label, but it sounds too funny of a word

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-06-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(26-06-2016 02:09 PM)neilxt Wrote:  You're trying to make them sound ridiculous but they are actually not. It's the same place culture comes from. In fact they might even be 2 faces of the same coin. "Common knowledge" likewise.
Nah, doesn't cut it.
Claims of what the culture is, implies a bell curve of behaviour. It implies trends and common practices.
Morality is similar, but different. Morality implies that there are things deemed right and things deemed wrong. So, if we make a claim that for society/community A X is immoral, we are implying that people in society A are morally obligated not to do X. But, let's say we do a survey and find that 95% of people in society A deem homosexuality to be wrong. This does not mean that for that society "homosexuality IS wrong". I think if we make a claim such that the morality of that society is X, then we are making a false claim. We would be more accurate to state that most people in that society believe X is wrong.
So in contrast I think we can say that eating rice is a Chinese cultural tradition. This implies that eating rice has been passed down from generation to generation and is common practice in the Chinese society. But it does not imply that a Chinese person is obligated to eat rice and would be misbehaving if they don't.

So I guess it comes down to your own definition behind the phrase "morality of a society/community".
If you deem it to be the prevailing belief of the majority of people in that society. Then sure.
If you deem it to be the moral rights and wrongs in the context of that society. Then absolutely no.
Because each person holds their own definitions of what morality is, then I don't know what you mean when you state "the morality of a community".
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27-06-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(26-06-2016 02:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Dude, are you like all NAMbLA and shit? Just asking.
No, I'm like English and shit and actually think about what words really mean. Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent children, not adolescent boys.
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27-06-2016, 03:35 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-06-2016 02:09 PM)neilxt Wrote:  You're trying to make them sound ridiculous but they are actually not. It's the same place culture comes from. In fact they might even be 2 faces of the same coin. "Common knowledge" likewise.
Nah, doesn't cut it. Claims of what the culture is, implies a bell curve of behaviour. It implies trends and common practices.
You're beginning to sound more and more like a Christian fundamentalist trying to argue against religion. Implies? What? You're ust setting up a straw man.

(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Morality is similar, but different.
D'uh. Comes from the same place and two sides of a coin are the phrases I used which mean eactly that.
(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Morality implies that there are things deemed right and things deemed wrong.
Deemed by whom?
(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So, if we ...
We whom?
(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  a claim that for society/community A X is immoral, we are implying that people in society A are morally obligated not to do X.
Within and when epresenting that community, yes.
(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But, let's say we do a survey and find that 95% of people in society A
I used the word community for good reason. Trying to change the terminology and then base an argument on a difference in those terminologies is archetypal straw man.
(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So in contrast I think we can say that eating rice is a Chinese cultural tradition.
All lipe shends are umpty does not mean that all upty shends are lipe. I learned that when I was 12. Grow up! All moral imperatives are cultural does not mean that all cultural norms are moral imperatives. I really should not be having to teach you this.

(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So I guess it comes down to your own definition behind the phrase "morality of a society/community".
... is not a phrase I used so it has no value in this conversation.
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27-06-2016, 03:39 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(27-06-2016 03:04 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(26-06-2016 02:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Dude, are you like all NAMbLA and shit? Just asking.
No, I'm like English and shit and actually think about what words really mean.
I thought you Brits spelled it "paedophile".

(27-06-2016 03:04 PM)neilxt Wrote:  Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent children, not adolescent boys.

Fair enough, "pervert" works fine for me.

#sigh
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