What IS morality, really?
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28-06-2016, 03:19 AM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(26-06-2016 02:18 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(25-06-2016 03:48 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Are you saying that morality gives some people a hard on? Consider
And that these same people like morality, but they should hate it? Consider
I was trying to fold in a crack about some people getting their kicks complaining about other people's morals. You're right, it doesn't work. It got tied up in too many negatives and I should have just cut bait and bailed but I didn't.

What are you referring to exactly? I mean, you've said various things here. Anyway, I'd still like your answer to this:

(25-06-2016 03:48 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Oh and by the way, why we should hate pornography? I mean, you're not saying it in the sense of "it's not my cup of tea", you're saying we should hate it. Why?

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28-06-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(27-06-2016 03:35 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Morality implies that there are things deemed right and things deemed wrong.
Deemed by whom?
Look it up in a dictionary, any dictionary, your choice. It's what the concept of morality is all about.
An individual person is the holder of the belief of what is right or what is wrong.
Each individual person that buys into the morality stick.

(27-06-2016 03:35 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(26-06-2016 04:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  a claim that for society/community A X is immoral, we are implying that people in society A are morally obligated not to do X.
Within and when epresenting that community, yes.
No, not true.
A community doesn't have a documented morality. There is no implied contract. Just a bunch of people, each with their own moral beliefs, each desiring others to obey their own beliefs. It's misguidedness and uncoordinated mayhem.
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28-06-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(17-06-2016 03:32 PM)neilxt Wrote:  This question has been exercising my mind a lot recently because, although theist arguments that it's God's work aren't strong, none of the counter arguments seem particularly strong either because no one seems really sure what it really is.

Many very smart people have been thinking about that for a long time so it seems more than a little vain to claim that I have an answer but I really think I do.

Morality, and the whole edifice of moral right and wrong, is the community's idea of what individual behaviour will help or harm that community.

Most people are members of several communities; family, town, church, city, state, county, teligion, sect, race, genus, world. Also there are many moralities which are common to most communities, thou shalt not kill, for instance, because if people went around killing each other it would do great harm to most communities, but larger communities carve out exemptions even for that to enable war and punishment.


Every moral value I've been able to think of was, at least once something a then powerful community thought was important to the health of that community. Every change in moral value that I've seen can be (very easily) traced t either a power shift between competing communities, or a visible change in the needs of a community, or both.

I've had this concept mulling round my head for weeks and the more I think about it the sounder it gets. I think it's about time to give it an airing.

Morality is a community's view of what individual behaviour is good or bad for the community.

Discuss.

I don't live by religion but I try to live by 'Do unto others as you'd have done to yourself'.

It seems to make sense to me.
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01-07-2016, 06:02 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(28-06-2016 01:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 03:35 PM)neilxt Wrote:  Deemed by whom?
Look it up in a dictionary, any dictionary, your choice. It's what the concept of morality is all about.

I know what deemed means and I know that a person or persons has so be doing the deeming. Who is doing that is of fundamental importance specifacilly to this thread so I want to to think about, and describe who that is and where that comes from because that is central to my thesis.
(27-06-2016 03:35 PM)neilxt Wrote:  Within and when representing that community, yes.
No, not true. A community doesn't have a documented morality.
[/quote]
And yet any moral imperative, plus or minus, can be traced back to a community of some sort. There doesn't need to be a law or a contract. moral opprobrium is all it needs to become a moral value and all you need to achieve that is a community.
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01-07-2016, 06:12 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(28-06-2016 01:36 PM)Doddia Wrote:  Morality is a community's view of what individual behaviour is good or bad for the community.

I don't live by religion but I try to live by 'Do unto others as you'd have done to yourself'.
[/quote]
The golden rule, actually enshrined in the bible. But where does it come from why do some communities not value it? Including some American communities?
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01-07-2016, 07:03 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(01-07-2016 06:02 PM)neilxt Wrote:  And yet any moral imperative, plus or minus, can be traced back to a community of some sort. There doesn't need to be a law or a contract. moral opprobrium is all it needs to become a moral value and all you need to achieve that is a community.
When you say "moral opprobrium" are you looking for some kind of response from some people?

e.g. If I cheat on my pregnant wife, would you be looking to see if there is some reaction from some people?

So let's say 5 people come at me, calling me a dead beat husband, a loser, a cheat, shouting at me and such. Does that count as "moral opprobrium".

Are those 5 loud people a representative of my community?
What about the 500 people who stayed quiet?

Are you saying that in order to assess the morality of the community, we are to look for the squeaky wheel?

So if abortion is legal, but a 0.001% of the population takes to the abortion clinic by picketing it and bombing it, or shooting up people. Does that mean that abortion is immoral within the community?

Please tell me the method that you would utilise with regards to "moral opprobrium" in order to discover what is immoral in a community?
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02-07-2016, 04:58 AM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(01-07-2016 06:12 PM)neilxt Wrote:  The golden rule, actually enshrined in the bible. But where does it come from why do some communities not value it? Including some American communities?

Are you saying it's in the Bible? Where is it?

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02-07-2016, 07:43 AM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(01-07-2016 06:12 PM)neilxt Wrote:  The golden rule, actually enshrined in the bible. But where does it come from why do some communities not value it? Including some American communities?

It is not original to the Bible, it predates it.

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02-07-2016, 08:28 AM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(17-06-2016 03:32 PM)neilxt Wrote:  This question has been exercising my mind a lot recently because, although theist arguments that it's God's work aren't strong, none of the counter arguments seem particularly strong either because no one seems really sure what it really is.

Many very smart people have been thinking about that for a long time so it seems more than a little vain to claim that I have an answer but I really think I do.

Morality, and the whole edifice of moral right and wrong, is the community's idea of what individual behaviour will help or harm that community.

Most people are members of several communities; family, town, church, city, state, county, teligion, sect, race, genus, world. Also there are many moralities which are common to most communities, thou shalt not kill, for instance, because if people went around killing each other it would do great harm to most communities, but larger communities carve out exemptions even for that to enable war and punishment.


Every moral value I've been able to think of was, at least once something a then powerful community thought was important to the health of that community. Every change in moral value that I've seen can be (very easily) traced t either a power shift between competing communities, or a visible change in the needs of a community, or both.

I've had this concept mulling round my head for weeks and the more I think about it the sounder it gets. I think it's about time to give it an airing.

Morality is a community's view of what individual behaviour is good or bad for the community.

Discuss.

We are the only species that would debate morality. Not that we are the only species capable of debating morality, we are the only ones that do. We have all been mentally conditioned to see morality as black and white, with the gray area arising when a problem comes about that cant be resolved with in the black an white parameters. This fact alone, for me atleast, is enough to see that morality is a fluid state that changes based on the present situation. If ones survival is at stake I believe any of us would toss societies standard of morality and do what you have to do to survive regardless of consequences. Consequences of violating societies, governments or tribal guidelines for morality is the only thing that makes moral or immoral actions. Most OPEN MINDED people make positive decisions, and can work together in a rational manner in any situation without the need for moral guidelines. As you say, the needs of the community guide the direction of morality based on what is needed for survival.
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03-07-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(28-06-2016 03:19 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  What are you referring to exactly?
I was just making a dumb crack about how some are addicted to complaining about other people's moral and comparing that desire to a porn addiction. It was supposed to be a bit of irony.

(25-06-2016 03:48 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Oh and by the way, why we should hate pornography? I mean, you're not saying it in the sense of "it's not my cup of tea", you're saying we should hate it. Why?
Whether you hat pornography or not will depend on the perceived needs of the communities with which you identify.
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