What IS morality, really?
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10-07-2016, 03:46 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(04-07-2016 05:54 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  In my humble opinion, the origins of morality begin as a partly inherent human characteristic now known as the Ethic of Reciprocity, or more commonly known as the Golden Rule.
At the fundamental rever large brained mammals like us can ad do show a simple concept of fairness and empathy. Morality is much more complex than that. Some communities believe that letting women show their faces and walk around unshaperoned is immoral. Others think that telling women what they're allowed to wear and who they're allowed to meet and where they're allowed to go is immoral. These moral values cannot be made compatible and cannot be determined to be in the personal interest of any particular individual holding these values yest they are firmly held moral values with a strong existence within a community. And that's the point.
Cats don't have any real community. If their owner dies cats will eat their owner's body. Dogs are pack animals. They have a strong sense of community. Dogs won't eat their dead owner. Even at that level, without requiring language to understand, community determines morality, even to the detriment of indvidual.
(04-07-2016 05:54 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  We are selfish creatures,
Yes we are, but morality somehow defines the ways in which we think we 0should not be.
(04-07-2016 05:54 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  On the flip side of the coin, we have compassion, which is another painful emotion. We can often be moved by compassion to help someone. If we don't help them, again we feel guilt.
That's true, but that's a bit outside the determination I am trying to make.
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10-07-2016, 04:37 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(04-07-2016 06:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 10:21 AM)neilxt Wrote:  Opposing abortion rights serves some needs of one set of communities. Defending abortion rights serves different needs of different communities. Understanding what communities those are and what needs they serves gives us foundation on which that can be sensibly debated.
We could take a look at the Catholic "community'.
They are an organisation who claims to have authority on moral beliefs. They require their congregation to belief what they tell them to believe.
This is a community with a documented set of "morals", although, having documented them and enforcing them means that they are rules or laws rather than morals, people are coerced rather having "free will" and making personal choices. So in many ways this is disqualified as a morality and is merely a law. But none the less, they label them as "morals".
So can we have a "sensible debate" with the Catholic Church?
Good question. We can have a debate about the Catholic church, certainly.
"Anti-Abortion" can certainly be said to be part of Catholic communities' moral code, but so can conforming to that code also be a moral code as can enforcing that code on a larger community, and those parts of the code are just as strong and not written down. And the vlues those codes confer on Catholic communities extand beyond merely saving the lives of "unborn", They are also tools for extending the power and reach of the Catholic community, maintaining the poverty of the bulk of the Catholic community, Extending the power and wealth of the hierarchy within the Catholic community (an important sub-community with its own needs), and that's just off the top of my head.
(04-07-2016 06:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But how do we find the true answer as to when it is or isn't a "person".
There isn't a "true answer" but I've found that if you challenge them with a "higher morality" it does change the debate. Ask them how each of the participants should be punished. That confuses them.
(04-07-2016 06:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Perhaps we need to look of the purpose of the classification.
... purposes, yes. But some of the purposes are not obvious so be careful; and the precise purposes are not really the point of this debate so I'd rather not get stuck on that at this stage.
(04-07-2016 06:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So the point I am getting at is that with an organisation which claims to have moral authority they can have a leader discuss moral topics with you. You are not likely to convince them to find middle ground though.
If you identify all the purposes though they might be disinclined to debate you. And even if not , it gives you a chance to evaluate those morals. If you determine that an important point of Catholic morality is to encourage big families in order to extend numerical influence and improve the power of Catholic hierarchy through poverty
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11-07-2016, 09:45 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
Evolution science says life is the result of a mindless accident. Humans beings are therefore just glorifed mud; they are meaningless as the process that produced them. Therefore life is meaningless. If life is meaningless, everything in life is meaningless, including morality.
Morality is just something some folks invent to make life SEEM more meaningful, but emotions and feelings don't change the facts. Morality is just opinion; it means nothing.
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11-07-2016, 09:59 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(11-07-2016 09:45 PM)Edgar Wrote:  Evolution science says life is the result of a mindless accident. Humans beings are therefore just glorifed mud; they are meaningless as the process that produced them. Therefore life is meaningless. If life is meaningless, everything in life is meaningless, including morality.
Morality is just something some folks invent to make life SEEM more meaningful, but emotions and feelings don't change the facts. Morality is just opinion; it means nothing.

Life is far from meaningless. Dumb argument


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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11-07-2016, 11:22 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(11-07-2016 09:45 PM)Edgar Wrote:  Evolution science says life is the result of a mindless accident. Humans beings are therefore just glorifed mud; they are meaningless as the process that produced them. Therefore life is meaningless. If life is meaningless, everything in life is meaningless, including morality.
Morality is just something some folks invent to make life SEEM more meaningful, but emotions and feelings don't change the facts. Morality is just opinion; it means nothing.

It being an opinion itself gives it personal meaning. Just like any opinion has a meaning to the mind of that holds the opinion.

Because it's not inherent or absolute doesn't mean it's non existent. It's a physiological chemistry based function and is combined by that to be made.

Morality IS the emotions and feelings. It's a value system.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-07-2016, 05:38 AM
RE: What IS morality, really?
Howdy! Welcome to the forum.

(11-07-2016 09:45 PM)Edgar Wrote:  Evolution science says life is the result of a mindless accident.

Evolution does not deal with the beginnings of life. That is usually referred to as Abiogenesis. LINK

Abiogenesis and Evolution are two completely different subjects.

Abiogenesis deals with the chemical origins of life. It describes how inorganic matter became organic and eventually living. It is a series of chemical processes that started out as simple reactions to outside catalysts. As these reactions continued and grew more complex they became self sustaining. Inorganic compounds gradually became organic compounds which eventually became living organisms. This does not involve evolution per se, because...

Evolution, simply put, is genetic change amongst a species over a series of generations. LINK

The biggest difference is that Evolution has been proven and confirmed. It is indisputable. Abiogenesis, on the other hand, is still a developing concept.


(11-07-2016 09:45 PM)Edgar Wrote:  Humans beings are therefore just glorifed mud;

According to the bible, yes. According to science, humans are a species of primates. Monkeys. We may have started out as gelatinous, oozing, pond scum but now we are hairless (mostly), tail-less monkeys.

(11-07-2016 09:45 PM)Edgar Wrote:  they are meaningless as the process that produced them. Therefore life is meaningless. If life is meaningless, everything in life is meaningless, including morality.

Life has whatever meaning you assign it. For some it is family. For others a career. Most don't get a chance to decide.

There are dangers to allowing a "god" to tell you the meaning of your life. You could end up wearing an explosive vest and blowing up innocents. Or being a serial pedophile hiding behind a clerical collar.

(11-07-2016 09:45 PM)Edgar Wrote:  Morality is just something some folks invent to make life SEEM more meaningful, but emotions and feelings don't change the facts. Morality is just opinion; it means nothing.

Yes, morality is subjective. Every religion has their own gods and morality. Every believer has their own version of that morality.

There is no magic book of answers. You cannot live your life hiding behind ancient scriptures to avoid making your own difficult ethical and moral decisions.

Now put on your grownup underpants and come out and join the real world.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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13-07-2016, 12:24 AM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(11-07-2016 09:45 PM)Edgar Wrote:  Evolution science says life is the result of a mindless accident. Humans beings are therefore just glorifed mud; they are meaningless as the process that produced them. Therefore life is meaningless. If life is meaningless, everything in life is meaningless, including morality.
Morality is just something some folks invent to make life SEEM more meaningful, but emotions and feelings don't change the facts. Morality is just opinion; it means nothing.

I have to wonder what definition of "meaning" you are using. It certainly isn't the same one that anyone else is.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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22-07-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(11-07-2016 09:59 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 09:45 PM)Edgar Wrote:  Evolution science says life is the result of a mindless accident. Humans beings are therefore just glorifed mud; they are meaningless as the process that produced them. Therefore life is meaningless. If life is meaningless, everything in life is meaningless, including morality.
Morality is just something some folks invent to make life SEEM more meaningful, but emotions and feelings don't change the facts. Morality is just opinion; it means nothing.

Life is far from meaningless. Dumb argument

Are you saying that there is a meaning to life? Is it just human lives that have meaning, or do mosquitos' lives also have meaning?
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22-07-2016, 02:52 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(22-07-2016 01:42 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 09:59 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Life is far from meaningless. Dumb argument

Are you saying that there is a meaning to life? Is it just human lives that have meaning, or do mosquitos' lives also have meaning?

How is made up meaning any less meaning than supposed other "real" meanings?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-07-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(11-07-2016 09:45 PM)Edgar Wrote:  Evolution science says life is the result of a mindless accident. Humans beings are therefore just glorifed mud; they are meaningless as the process that produced them. Therefore life is meaningless. If life is meaningless, everything in life is meaningless, including morality.
Morality is just something some folks invent to make life SEEM more meaningful, but emotions and feelings don't change the facts. Morality is just opinion; it means nothing.
This sounds like the rantings of a theist apologist. Humans want to feel as if they are important and valuable and invent gods to justify that. It doesn't make them real


Maybe the human race is just a conglomeration of tiny accidents the sane as anyn other animal.

Humanity is a social animal and morality is a glue that help create those social bonds. That doesn't mean that it's in any way right or meaningful som is really irrelevant to this thread.
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