What IS morality, really?
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19-06-2016, 12:55 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(18-06-2016 10:33 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  At what point did I ever say or imply there are absolute moral values?
Over and over again whenever you tried to make this or that is a moral choice be a value judgement on its moral value.
(18-06-2016 10:33 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  When did I ever say or imply that cultures don't generate moral values?
You need to read what I've written instead of coming prepared to disagree by default.
Whenever you said one decision or another was or was not "a moral choice" based on your own moral value system instead of what I meant; that it was a choice based on their moral values.
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19-06-2016, 12:59 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 12:55 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 10:33 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  At what point did I ever say or imply there are absolute moral values?
Over and over again whenever you tried to make this or that is a moral choice be a value judgement on its moral value.
(18-06-2016 10:33 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  When did I ever say or imply that cultures don't generate moral values?
You need to read what I've written instead of coming prepared to disagree by default.
Whenever you said one decision or another was or was not "a moral choice" based on your own moral value system instead of what I meant; that it was a choice based on their moral values.

You've attributed my questions to someone else, I don't know why.

At no point have I asserted or implied that absolute morals exist. Your assumption that I did is based on not understanding what I've written or conflating what I've said with other people.

And there is nothing about me disagreeing with what YOU asserted was a moral choice meaning that I've said cultures don't generate morals.

I don't even understand how you could misconstrue or contort what I've said into the interpretations you've generated.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-06-2016, 12:59 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(18-06-2016 01:15 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 12:34 PM)neilxt Wrote:  By whom?

By our modern society. That defense has been attempted in numerous criminal and military trials. It is not accepted as valid.

(18-06-2016 12:34 PM)neilxt Wrote:  At some stage someone is saying that humanity is a community we all belong to and at some stage you should have absorbed and prioritized our moral values.

Not humanity as a whole. Countries vary in what is socially acceptable. Those who live in a particular country or society are obliged to abide by the moral values of that place.
For those who lived in wartime Germany they were persuaded by their nation community, that "just following orders" was a fine and moral action.
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19-06-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 12:59 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 01:15 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  By our modern society. That defense has been attempted in numerous criminal and military trials. It is not accepted as valid.


Not humanity as a whole. Countries vary in what is socially acceptable. Those who live in a particular country or society are obliged to abide by the moral values of that place.
For those who lived in wartime Germany they were persuaded by their nation community, that "just following orders" was a fine and moral action.

You're misconstruing what is being said. It wasn't the people of Germany as a whole who were "just following orders" when it came to carrying out the war crimes being discussed here. You're latching onto one aspect of the example pointed out to you (incorrect interpretation too).

The point is that moral choices don't come from strict adherence to rules or laws or commandments.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-06-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 12:59 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 01:15 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  By our modern society. That defense has been attempted in numerous criminal and military trials. It is not accepted as valid.


Not humanity as a whole. Countries vary in what is socially acceptable. Those who live in a particular country or society are obliged to abide by the moral values of that place.
For those who lived in wartime Germany they were persuaded by their nation community, that "just following orders" was a fine and moral action.

For instance, "just following orders" wasn't a "fine and moral action" but was a matter of a soldier doing the job they were ordered to do without considering the moral ramifications. That's the point being made to you

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-06-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(18-06-2016 01:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 09:10 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I wouldn't call "dying for your country" a moral action. But defending one's community could be viewed as defending oneself. So defending your community is still altruistic and beneficial to the individual.

Also, this statement by you "You are still trying to assign a value assessment to a moral choice and call that moral. I am not." isn't true. For example, you've asserted that "Except that's not always the case. One extreme example of moral behavior is to lay down your life for your country." You're assigning "value" to moral choices too.
Except that I'm not. I'm saying something is a "moral choice" because it is in some way determined by that person's moral value system. I am, in fact, using it in exactly the same way as you just did when you said "You're assigning "value" to moral choices too" up above.Facepalm
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19-06-2016, 01:21 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 01:17 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 01:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Also, this statement by you "You are still trying to assign a value assessment to a moral choice and call that moral. I am not." isn't true. For example, you've asserted that "Except that's not always the case. One extreme example of moral behavior is to lay down your life for your country." You're assigning "value" to moral choices too.
Except that I'm not. I'm saying something is a "moral choice" because it is in some way determined by that person's moral value system. I am, in fact, using it in exactly the same way as you just did when you said "You're assigning "value" to moral choices too" up above.Facepalm

That makes absolutely no sense. You assert that you're not assigning "value" but have explicitly done so? Now you're just being dishonest.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-06-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(18-06-2016 03:31 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 03:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It tells us a lot about morality.

Morality is a subset of the broader umbrella "preference"
All moral beliefs are personal preferences however not all preferences are moral beliefs. For example choosing Sparkling Lemon over Cokeacola is a preference that most people wouldn't consider a moral choice.

Most people who use the word morality (moral realists) do not consider it to be preference, but I get what you're saying.

What I'm getting at is that there is no way to determine whether or not it is moral to kill and eat animals. If someone claims that eating animals is immoral, it's impossible to prove (or know) that the claim is true. In fact, we can know that the claim is unfounded.

The problem is that people make moral claims all the time (especially politicians). Such as, all women should have the right to an abortion, slavery is wrong, letting the rich buy legislation is wrong, etc...., Politicians make moral claims all the time, but they are unfounded. In fact when someone makes a moral claim to me like "genocide is wrong", I process that in my mind as "oh, ok, you mean that you don't like genocide." In their mind they don't see it as merely a preference, but rather more like an objective fact.
"Genocide is wrong" is not objectively provable, but neither is it purely subjective preference either. As humanity has matured and "all mankind" has become a community more people are seeing themselves as members of that community and genocide becomes the very worst type of murder. Genocide is a moral value (as in immoral) of the community of human.
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19-06-2016, 01:28 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(18-06-2016 03:31 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 03:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Morality is a subset of the broader umbrella "preference"
All moral beliefs are personal preferences however not all preferences are moral beliefs.

Most people who use the word morality (moral realists) do not consider it to be preference, but I get what you're saying.

What I'm getting at is that there is no way to determine whether or not it is moral to kill and eat animals. If someone claims that eating animals is immoral, it's impossible to prove (or know) that the claim is true. In fact, we can know that the claim is unfounded.

The problem is that people make moral claims all the time (especially politicians). Such as, all women should have the right to an abortion, slavery is wrong, letting the rich buy legislation is wrong, etc...., Politicians make moral claims all the time, but they are unfounded. In fact when someone makes a moral claim to me like "genocide is wrong", I process that in my mind as "oh, ok, you mean that you don't like genocide." In their mind they don't see it as merely a preference, but rather more like an objective fact.
"Genocide is wrong" is not objectively provable, but neither is it purely subjective preference either. As humanity has matured and "all mankind" has become a community more people are seeing themselves as members of that community and genocide becomes the very worst type of murder. Genocide is a moral value (as in immoral) of the community of human.
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19-06-2016, 01:28 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught.

H. L. Mencken

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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