What IS morality, really?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-06-2016, 01:29 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 01:26 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 03:31 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Most people who use the word morality (moral realists) do not consider it to be preference, but I get what you're saying.

What I'm getting at is that there is no way to determine whether or not it is moral to kill and eat animals. If someone claims that eating animals is immoral, it's impossible to prove (or know) that the claim is true. In fact, we can know that the claim is unfounded.

The problem is that people make moral claims all the time (especially politicians). Such as, all women should have the right to an abortion, slavery is wrong, letting the rich buy legislation is wrong, etc...., Politicians make moral claims all the time, but they are unfounded. In fact when someone makes a moral claim to me like "genocide is wrong", I process that in my mind as "oh, ok, you mean that you don't like genocide." In their mind they don't see it as merely a preference, but rather more like an objective fact.
"Genocide is wrong" is not objectively provable, but neither is it purely subjective preference either. As humanity has matured and "all mankind" has become a community more people are seeing themselves as members of that community and genocide becomes the very worst type of murder. Genocide is a moral value (as in immoral) of the community of human.

You're conflating "community" with species now. There is no "community of man." There are many communities comprised of humans. Some have coexisted in time and space and others have not.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2016, 01:43 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(18-06-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 08:13 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Perhaps you could elaborate on this? What does the example I gave tell us about morality?

Quote:For example, if person "A" likes killing animals and eating them, and person "B" thinks it is wrong to kill animals for food, what does that tell us about morality?
It tells us that different people have a different opinion about what is right and what is wrong.
Neither person is objectively incorrect. We have no way to objectively resolve the dispute.
Which brings us right back to the door I led us into. And in a sense it gives a a chance to look at it objectively, too. Moral is a decision about individual choices to serve the needs of a community. So we can evaluate it on several grounds: does it achieve the intended benefit? Is there a better way? Does it harm other communities or individuals? Is the community worth helping? Once you recognize where morals come from you can look at them more objectively.

Doesn't make it easy, but it makes it possible.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2016, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2016 04:16 PM by Stevil.)
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 05:18 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I don't think we have any significant disagreement, I just don't like the wording you choose. For example, I would never say that eating animals is immoral for person B.
Well, the way I see it. A person is entitled to label something as "morally wrong". This label means something to them, but has no meaning to others. Therefore if they have moral beliefs then somethings are immoral for them. They will feel guilt, probably get upset or surprised when others do those "immoral" things. They might even try to convince others or try to shame others for doing these 'immoral" things.

(19-06-2016 05:18 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I think it's a lot more accurate to simply say that person B dislikes killing/eating animals.
But there is a difference between disliking brussel sprouts and disliking killing animals. One is not bound to the moral language.

(19-06-2016 05:18 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Obviously the religious do this all the time, but I've heard many atheists do this as well. As Tomasia will help point out, a lot of atheists try to have their cake and eat it too.
Indeed many atheists do.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2016, 01:51 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(18-06-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 08:13 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  For example, if person "A" likes killing animals and eating them, and person "B" thinks it is wrong to kill animals for food, what does that tell us about morality?
It tells us that different people have a different opinion about what is right and what is wrong.
Neither person is objectively incorrect. We have no way to objectively resolve the dispute.
We can infer from the difference some of what communities A and B see themselves as a part of.

Person B sees himself, on some level, as part of the community of all animals and so killing them would be wrong.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2016, 01:58 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 01:03 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The point is that moral choices don't come from strict adherence to rules or laws or commandments.

"strict adherence to rules or laws" can be a moral value in ts own right.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2016, 02:14 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 01:51 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It tells us that different people have a different opinion about what is right and what is wrong.
Neither person is objectively incorrect. We have no way to objectively resolve the dispute.
We can infer from the difference some of what communities A and B see themselves as a part of.

Person B sees himself, on some level, as part of the community of all animals and so killing them would be wrong.
I disagree. Person B for whatever reason holds a personal belief that it is wrong to harm animals. Person B does not have to believe that they themselves are part of that community.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2016, 02:16 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 01:43 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 11:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It tells us that different people have a different opinion about what is right and what is wrong.
Neither person is objectively incorrect. We have no way to objectively resolve the dispute.
Which brings us right back to the door I led us into. And in a sense it gives a a chance to look at it objectively, too. Moral is a decision about individual choices to serve the needs of a community.
Disagree. It's just about personal belief. Doesn't have to be about the impact on the community. A person can belief it is immoral to masterbate or look at porn even though there is no community impact.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2016, 02:29 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(17-06-2016 03:32 PM)neilxt Wrote:  This question has been exercising my mind a lot recently because, although theist arguments that it's God's work aren't strong, none of the counter arguments seem particularly strong either because no one seems really sure what it really is.

Many very smart people have been thinking about that for a long time so it seems more than a little vain to claim that I have an answer but I really think I do.

Morality, and the whole edifice of moral right and wrong, is the community's idea of what individual behaviour will help or harm that community.

Most people are members of several communities; family, town, church, city, state, county, teligion, sect, race, genus, world. Also there are many moralities which are common to most communities, thou shalt not kill, for instance, because if people went around killing each other it would do great harm to most communities, but larger communities carve out exemptions even for that to enable war and punishment.


Every moral value I've been able to think of was, at least once something a then powerful community thought was important to the health of that community. Every change in moral value that I've seen can be (very easily) traced t either a power shift between competing communities, or a visible change in the needs of a community, or both.

I've had this concept mulling round my head for weeks and the more I think about it the sounder it gets. I think it's about time to give it an airing.

Morality is a community's view of what individual behaviour is good or bad for the community.

Discuss.


[Image: 53847863.jpg]

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(19-06-2016 01:58 PM)neilxt Wrote:  
(19-06-2016 01:03 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The point is that moral choices don't come from strict adherence to rules or laws or commandments.

"strict adherence to rules or laws" can be a moral value in ts own right.

No. This has already been explained to you by multiple people. Following orders/rules/laws =/= morality

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-06-2016, 04:07 PM
RE: What IS morality, really?
(18-06-2016 07:46 AM)neilxt Wrote:  I'm uncomfortable with the phrase "community at large" because it is both too specific and too amorphous.
I think the term is synonymous with the population of a state or country. If 99.9% of the population believes that capital punishment is amoral, then so be it. And as a result, it's legislated against in that state or country. (We need to be wary of reducing arguments to a matter of semantics too.)

Quote:Everyone belongs to many communities of various sizes. Every one of those communities has its own "moral code" which in many instances defers the majority of that code upwards to a larger community.
Which is exactly how it should be for a society to function as well as possible. Australia is primarily a secular country, but we (the predominant population) would never allow a—say—2% Muslim population to frame any of our laws or set our moral and/or ethical "standards" as a country.

Quote:Even gangs are communities. Many of their morals conflict with morals of a larger community that we are part of so we call them immoral but in the grand view I don't think there are any absolutes, just different communities, often at war.
I think you may be using the term "community" too broadly, especially when referring to gangs. Gang members are usually outliers that've each chosen to step beyond the bounds of a society's ethics and morals, and they have no sense of community in the normal sense of the word. Their sole purpose in life—as individuals—is to disrupt or destroy the society that ousted them because of their criminality and/or unsociable behaviour. I wouldn't describe a disparate group of mindless thugs as a "community". It's too generous of spirit.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: