What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
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10-05-2014, 12:13 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People ...
(09-05-2014 03:46 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  We see many cases where God orders the killings of people in the Bible. Here are some, which I took from the website http://www.evilbible.com:

"God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered."

So, if today somebody was on trial for going on a mass murder spree, killing non-Christians and others who are "disobeying God", because they claim that God told them to do so, what would Christians say? God certainly did that in the Bible, so why is it that he can tell people in Biblical times to kill people, yet if somebody in our modern day society said that God spoke to them and ordered them to kill people, Christians would say that person is nuts? By Christian morality, this person has a valid defense for their actions, since God ordered the same thing to be done in the past. Why would God order these things to be done in the past, but not in the present day?

Also, this is where the "burden of proof argument" that Christians LOVE to use can be thrown right back in their faces: The defendant can say "Can you prove that God DIDN'T order me to kill these people? Hmm...?" By the Christian "burden of proof" argument, this is an absolutely valid defense, and the burden of proof is now on the prosecution to show that God did not order the defendant to kill those people. Of course, it's impossible to disprove, therefore, by the Christian "burden of proof" argument, the defendant MUST go free!
In the U.S. the court would not accept the "God told me to do it" argument because to do so would violate the establishment clause of the first amendment. As precedent the prosecution could cite "Kitzmiller v. Dover."

The first amendment plainly states that the official religion of the United States is agnosticism.Thumbsup

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10-05-2014, 12:42 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
Could everyone just try to ignore Jeremy?

You all know he's going to try to derail every thread he posts in... If you reply then you're doing exactly what he wants.

Just let it go, no matter how much he pisses you off.

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10-05-2014, 06:24 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(09-05-2014 08:41 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:07 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God has never murdered or ordered murder.

Seriously? Your infallible holy book is filled with passages about your god killing babies and children:


"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)

"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted." (Leviticus 26:21-22)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16)

"Next we headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his army attacked us at Edrei. But the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns." (Deuteronomy 3:1-7)

Like it or not, THAT is child murder at the hands of your god! You obviously just choose to stick your fingers in your ears and say "La la la! I can't hear you!"

No it is not. At best you have demonstrated that God kills children and babies.

No Christian would argue against this nor does it make it murder.

I find it ironic that the same people who accuse God of murdering babies would condone the killing of an unborn baby.

I find it ironic that you gloss over the fact that babies are killed everyday and it is not considered murder.

The issue is not whether God has killed children or babies, the issue is, has God done something He should not have done?

There are two ways of looking at this. First in order for there to actually be a charge brought forth against God, He would have had to have actually broken some law that says babies should not be killed. There is no law however that states that whether you are a moral objectivist or not.

Secondly, God as God, is the one who actually created the babies. If God deems it best for a baby to die instead of suffering during its life then He has done what is right in taking the childs life. Parents do this exact same thing when they take a suffering baby off of life support. No one condemns them of murder.

Stop quoting garbage off of an infidel website and start thinking for yourself for a change.
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10-05-2014, 06:29 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(09-05-2014 11:30 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:07 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God has never murdered or ordered murder.

What do you think happened to Lot's wife?

Honestly. It's a tall tale. I'd like to hear what you think about that story and what happened to her and what you think about it.

She was warned not to do something and she did and suffered the consequences.

Her looking back was symbolic that she loved her evil life and was forced against her will to leave it. Her looking back was showing she had never left at all. She therefore was worthy of death as all who had stayed were worthy of death.

God warns people that evil and wickedness will destroy them. When the warning is dismissed, judgment comes.

I agree with the judgment.
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10-05-2014, 06:31 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(09-05-2014 11:11 PM)Colourcraze Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:01 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I never support murder

unless it's "eradicating people who make it their life's goal of terrorizing people?"




ugh, I feel horrible even responding to this... but seriously. He JUST said eradicate terrorists. I guess eradicate and murder are totally different.

murder is the unjustified taking of life.

Killing terrorists who make it their life's goal of terrorizing people who refuse to stop when warned is justified.
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10-05-2014, 06:45 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(10-05-2014 06:31 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 11:11 PM)Colourcraze Wrote:  unless it's "eradicating people who make it their life's goal of terrorizing people?"




ugh, I feel horrible even responding to this... but seriously. He JUST said eradicate terrorists. I guess eradicate and murder are totally different.

murder is the unjustified taking of life.

Killing terrorists who make it their life's goal of terrorizing people who refuse to stop when warned is justified.

So all the genocide in the Bible is not God being a capricious dick but God justifiably taking out the trash? Even the stuff about killing babies? Are babies terrorists?

How about the story of that dude who touched the ark of the covenant and got killed on the spot? Refer somewhere in Kings. He just wanted to stop the damn thing falling over but God said "Fuck that" and killed him.

You're telling me not having faith in God, picking up sticks on the Sabbath, having adulterous sex etc are all such heinous crimes such that *killing* someone who does them is *justified*?

If you believe these things to be true, you are a fucking nutcase.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-05-2014, 06:51 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
He`d have to explain it to a judge and jury.





End of story.

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10-05-2014, 06:53 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(10-05-2014 12:13 AM)f stop Wrote:  The first amendment plainly states that the official religion of the United States is agnosticism.Thumbsup


The First Amendment says no such thing. It asserts the government must be secular.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-05-2014, 07:09 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(10-05-2014 06:24 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:41 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  Seriously? Your infallible holy book is filled with passages about your god killing babies and children:


"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)

"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted." (Leviticus 26:21-22)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16)

"Next we headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his army attacked us at Edrei. But the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns." (Deuteronomy 3:1-7)

Like it or not, THAT is child murder at the hands of your god! You obviously just choose to stick your fingers in your ears and say "La la la! I can't hear you!"

No it is not. At best you have demonstrated that God kills children and babies.

No Christian would argue against this nor does it make it murder.

I find it ironic that the same people who accuse God of murdering babies would condone the killing of an unborn baby.

I find it ironic that you gloss over the fact that babies are killed everyday and it is not considered murder.

The issue is not whether God has killed children or babies, the issue is, has God done something He should not have done?

There are two ways of looking at this. First in order for there to actually be a charge brought forth against God, He would have had to have actually broken some law that says babies should not be killed. There is no law however that states that whether you are a moral objectivist or not.

Secondly, God as God, is the one who actually created the babies. If God deems it best for a baby to die instead of suffering during its life then He has done what is right in taking the childs life. Parents do this exact same thing when they take a suffering baby off of life support. No one condemns them of murder.

Stop quoting garbage off of an infidel website and start thinking for yourself for a change.

Yabut - killing someone other than in self defense or by accident IS murder.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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10-05-2014, 07:18 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
It depends on whether or not they hold office. Was George Bush Jr. arrested for going to war in Iraq based on what he thought God was telling him? No - he received widespread support in all branches of government, and the general population.

People who kill without the authority to do so and blame it on God's instruction are locked up. People who have the authority are encouraged to lean on God, as it was in the pages of history.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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