What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
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11-05-2014, 11:10 PM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2014 11:54 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(10-05-2014 06:24 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:41 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  Seriously? Your infallible holy book is filled with passages about your god killing babies and children:


"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)

"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted." (Leviticus 26:21-22)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16)

"Next we headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his army attacked us at Edrei. But the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns." (Deuteronomy 3:1-7)

Like it or not, THAT is child murder at the hands of your god! You obviously just choose to stick your fingers in your ears and say "La la la! I can't hear you!"

No it is not. At best you have demonstrated that God kills children and babies.

You fucking IDIOT. Your fairy tale monster killing children and babies is murder. QEDSTFU.


Quote:No Christian would argue against this nor does it make it murder.

Yes, it fucking DOES, asshole. And you throwing out bullshit red herrings doesn't change that one iota.



Quote:I find it ironic that the same people who accuse God of murdering babies would condone the killing of an unborn baby.

REALLY????


[Image: NO_U_cycle.gif]



Red Herring much, asshole? Strawman much, asshole? You bullshat yourself into a corner you can't get out of now, and so you go off on an irrelevant tangent to try to divert attention away from your LIES and your BULLSHIT.


Quote:I find it ironic that you gloss over the fact that babies are killed everyday and it is not considered murder.

Who did that, asshole? Strawman much?



Quote:The issue is not whether God has killed children or babies, the issue is, has God done something He should not have done?

...like killing a baby who can't harm anyone else? Fucking imbecile.



Quote:There are two ways of looking at this.
[

INCORRECT, Mr. False Choice Fallacy.



Quote:First in order for there to actually be a charge brought forth against God, He would have had to have actually broken some law that says babies should not be killed. There is no law however that states that whether you are a moral objectivist or not.

Keep digging your hole there, moron.

Quote:Secondly, God as God, is the one who actually created the babies.

You haven't demonstrated that this thing actually exists, and you show a complete ignorance of simple biology.



Quote:If God deems it best for a baby to die instead of suffering during its life then He has done what is right in taking the childs life.

Hey. Asshole. In your fables, your fairy tale monster isn't killing the babies out of mercy because they are fucking suffering. You ain't fooling ANYONE.


Quote: Parents do this exact same thing when they take a suffering baby off of life support. No one condemns them of murder.

Fuck you. None of these passages from your book of fables is depicting your fairy tale monster taking babies off fucking life support.


Quote:Stop quoting garbage off of an infidel website and start thinking for yourself for a change.

You know, someone somewhere down the line might have mentioned that you are a fucking CUNT.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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11-05-2014, 11:51 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
I love seeing how some of you keep talking about me and about how evil I am. It lets me know you agree with premise two of the moral argument.

The only way for you to avoid the conclusion of the argument that God exists is therefore to deny premise one.

But it is the very premise that is being repeatedly affirmed here by the ones who affirm two.

It is evident to me that many of you are not atheists at all but anti-theists.
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11-05-2014, 11:57 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(11-05-2014 11:51 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I love seeing how some of you keep talking about me and about how evil I am. It lets me know you agree with premise two of the moral argument.

The only way for you to avoid the conclusion of the argument that God exists is therefore to deny premise one.

But it is the very premise that is being repeatedly affirmed here by the ones who affirm two.

It is evident to me that many of you are not atheists at all but anti-theists.

^^ This bullshit has already been debunked several times over both here and in other threads.

Repeating your discredited bullshit over and over ad nauseum doesn't make it true.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-05-2014, 12:01 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(11-05-2014 11:57 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 11:51 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I love seeing how some of you keep talking about me and about how evil I am. It lets me know you agree with premise two of the moral argument.

The only way for you to avoid the conclusion of the argument that God exists is therefore to deny premise one.

But it is the very premise that is being repeatedly affirmed here by the ones who affirm two.

It is evident to me that many of you are not atheists at all but anti-theists.

^^ This bullshit has already been debunked several times over both here and in other threads.

Repeating your discredited bullshit over and over ad nauseum doesn't make it true.

You are right. Repeating something over and over again does not make it true.
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12-05-2014, 03:30 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2014 03:35 AM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(10-05-2014 06:24 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:41 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  Seriously? Your infallible holy book is filled with passages about your god killing babies and children:


"Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)

"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted." (Leviticus 26:21-22)

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16)

"Next we headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his army attacked us at Edrei. But the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns." (Deuteronomy 3:1-7)

Like it or not, THAT is child murder at the hands of your god! You obviously just choose to stick your fingers in your ears and say "La la la! I can't hear you!"

No it is not. At best you have demonstrated that God kills children and babies.

No Christian would argue against this nor does it make it murder.

I find it ironic that the same people who accuse God of murdering babies would condone the killing of an unborn baby.

I find it ironic that you gloss over the fact that babies are killed everyday and it is not considered murder.

The issue is not whether God has killed children or babies, the issue is, has God done something He should not have done?

There are two ways of looking at this. First in order for there to actually be a charge brought forth against God, He would have had to have actually broken some law that says babies should not be killed. There is no law however that states that whether you are a moral objectivist or not.

Secondly, God as God, is the one who actually created the babies. If God deems it best for a baby to die instead of suffering during its life then He has done what is right in taking the childs life. Parents do this exact same thing when they take a suffering baby off of life support. No one condemns them of murder.

Stop quoting garbage off of an infidel website and start thinking for yourself for a change.

You have yet to answer me directly and while I may be patient I do take you seriously and am insanely curious on your answers to my questions. I don't mind if you can't answer them but if you cannot then simply answer me with I don't know which is not a bad answer and we can search for the answer through research, evidence and reason.

Now, as for the killing of infants I believe yes that does make it murder but I will explain more why its even more ridiculous.

God created these children and babies. He knew about ordering their brutal deaths later on in the future correct? Or is he not all knowing? Is he all good? Then why not save them or could he not? He is either neither and not deserving of being called God or is both but is a monstrosity that plans for horrid deeds, causes them and then commits to them. That is such an ugly thing to happen and your God would be a murderer and not simply that but one who plans the murder, knows it to happen and does nothing to prevent it while stating he loves all his children as they are killed exactly how he knew they would. Why is that praised?

I am for abortion but you again seem to ignore God's brilliant plan for the world. Can you please explain to me about miscarriages throughout the world? Miscarriages have existed throughout history and have plagued mankind constantly even today. The United States alone has roughly a million miscarriages a year. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends08.pdf

Now remember this is the United States where we are fortunate. In other parts of the world especially third world countries the numbers are much more damning especially with a God who supposedly is so against abortion when he does so on a numbers basis even more ridiculous than abortion and yet no one complains when God does this. Why is this? Can you please answer why?

If you just give him excuse that he can just do these things that answers nothing.

Now you stating that God didn't break some non baby killing law is just absurd. Especially since you hold him in such high regard. So God does ridiculous things despite his power, intelligence, mercy and apparent wish for the best of us? Why does that help us or him?

And finally why would God create this baby? Make it suffer then remove it violently from from this world no less before it even experienced barely anything? I find so many things flawed here.

I have heard all the things you have stated before with others and I am just interested in why you think them. I think that is the difference that you can at least provide so I can know.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

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12-05-2014, 07:34 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(09-05-2014 08:02 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(09-05-2014 08:01 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I never support murder

Even if your god orders it?

See, the idea in Jeremy's head is that murder is a wrongful killing, and that is distinct from a righteous killing. So, any time God kills, it is, by very definition (cuz Jeremy says so) righteous, and thus, not murder. While it's presuppositional as hell, the position in and of itself isn't logically flawed. Now, where it gets weird is when he starts talking about rape, and how rape is the wrongful sexual abuse of another person; as if there were some righteous form.

Keep in mind, this is his actual stated position on the matter:

(06-05-2014 04:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am never okay with murder or rape. Murder by definition is the WRONGFUL taking of life. We all know what rape is. It is the WRONGFUL abuse of a person by forced sexual intercourse.

So no I am not okay with it. Ever.

Nor has God ever murdered anyone or ordered anyone to be raped.

He'll then go on to say that God never commanded rape, except for all those cases when he did. He'll then go on to either double down on the exceptionally creepy rape-that-isn't-rape rhetoric, or just go on and flat out lie to get out of the mess he's in.


I swear Todd Aiken got his legitimate rape talking points from Jeremy.
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12-05-2014, 07:53 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 12:01 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 11:57 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  ^^ This bullshit has already been debunked several times over both here and in other threads.

Repeating your discredited bullshit over and over ad nauseum doesn't make it true.

You are right. Repeating something over and over again does not make it true.

That's all you fucking do here, imbecile.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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12-05-2014, 08:27 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 03:30 AM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  
(10-05-2014 06:24 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  No it is not. At best you have demonstrated that God kills children and babies.

No Christian would argue against this nor does it make it murder.

I find it ironic that the same people who accuse God of murdering babies would condone the killing of an unborn baby.

I find it ironic that you gloss over the fact that babies are killed everyday and it is not considered murder.

The issue is not whether God has killed children or babies, the issue is, has God done something He should not have done?

There are two ways of looking at this. First in order for there to actually be a charge brought forth against God, He would have had to have actually broken some law that says babies should not be killed. There is no law however that states that whether you are a moral objectivist or not.

Secondly, God as God, is the one who actually created the babies. If God deems it best for a baby to die instead of suffering during its life then He has done what is right in taking the childs life. Parents do this exact same thing when they take a suffering baby off of life support. No one condemns them of murder.

Stop quoting garbage off of an infidel website and start thinking for yourself for a change.

You have yet to answer me directly and while I may be patient I do take you seriously and am insanely curious on your answers to my questions. I don't mind if you can't answer them but if you cannot then simply answer me with I don't know which is not a bad answer and we can search for the answer through research, evidence and reason.

Now, as for the killing of infants I believe yes that does make it murder but I will explain more why its even more ridiculous.

God created these children and babies. He knew about ordering their brutal deaths later on in the future correct? Or is he not all knowing? Is he all good? Then why not save them or could he not? He is either neither and not deserving of being called God or is both but is a monstrosity that plans for horrid deeds, causes them and then commits to them. That is such an ugly thing to happen and your God would be a murderer and not simply that but one who plans the murder, knows it to happen and does nothing to prevent it while stating he loves all his children as they are killed exactly how he knew they would. Why is that praised?

I am for abortion but you again seem to ignore God's brilliant plan for the world. Can you please explain to me about miscarriages throughout the world? Miscarriages have existed throughout history and have plagued mankind constantly even today. The United States alone has roughly a million miscarriages a year. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends08.pdf

Now remember this is the United States where we are fortunate. In other parts of the world especially third world countries the numbers are much more damning especially with a God who supposedly is so against abortion when he does so on a numbers basis even more ridiculous than abortion and yet no one complains when God does this. Why is this? Can you please answer why?

If you just give him excuse that he can just do these things that answers nothing.

Now you stating that God didn't break some non baby killing law is just absurd. Especially since you hold him in such high regard. So God does ridiculous things despite his power, intelligence, mercy and apparent wish for the best of us? Why does that help us or him?

And finally why would God create this baby? Make it suffer then remove it violently from from this world no less before it even experienced barely anything? I find so many things flawed here.

I have heard all the things you have stated before with others and I am just interested in why you think them. I think that is the difference that you can at least provide so I can know.

The passages in question must be interpreted within their context if one desires to know what they mean. To do otherwise would be to commit the fallacy of quote-mining.

I have had the privilege of reading Paul Copan's book entitled: "Is God a Moral Monster?"

He speaks on these issues with clarity and his writings are based on his knowledge of the cultural practices of the time in which these passages were applicable.

I suggest you read it. If you are unable to secure a copy, I will send you mine for free.

It is my view that God is the giver of life and therefore if He takes life, He has done no wrong.Nor do I see the taking of life in the biological sense as the taking of life in its spiritual sense. I make a distinction between the two. God is no more wrong for taking life than a potter is wrong when he decides to take a vessel he is forming on the potter's wheel and mold it into a more grand and majestic piece of art.
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12-05-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 08:27 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  It is my view that God is the giver of life and therefore if He takes life, He has done no wrong.Nor do I see the taking of life in the biological sense as the taking of life in its spiritual sense. I make a distinction between the two. God is no more wrong for taking life than a potter is wrong when he decides to take a vessel he is forming on the potter's wheel and mold it into a more grand and majestic piece of art.

God has as much regard for our lives as a potter does for clay.

Next up: Jeremy breaks down morality for us.
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12-05-2014, 09:35 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2014 09:39 AM by Jeremy E Walker.)
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 08:31 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 08:27 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  It is my view that God is the giver of life and therefore if He takes life, He has done no wrong.Nor do I see the taking of life in the biological sense as the taking of life in its spiritual sense. I make a distinction between the two. God is no more wrong for taking life than a potter is wrong when he decides to take a vessel he is forming on the potter's wheel and mold it into a more grand and majestic piece of art.

God has as much regard for our lives as a potter does for clay.

Next up: Jeremy breaks down morality for us.

In some small measure I understand why you think what you do.

Having endured much heartache and sorrow in my life and also witnessing it in others, often times the question of "why" arises. Why is the world the way it is? Why the suffering? Why did I have an abusive father? Why did my loved one have to tragically die because someone wanted to drink and drive.

There are some questions I have no answers to. However, out of all the worldviews that exist, Christianity's view is the most internally consistent and hopeful when it comes to the problem of evil.

It does not dismiss evil as just some sort of illusion to be overcome by "enlightenment", nor does it say that evil is merely something that some people use to label certain acts they do not like. It states that evil is real and affects us all in real ways. It also says God has done something about it and that we can have hope in the fact that God does care just as we would expect Him to care if He did indeed love us.

God did not make us so we could live a life robbed of the opportunity to practice virtue and righteousness. If He exists, and He did create us in His own image, we would expect for Him to intend for us to be like Him.

When I endure trial and difficulty I see it differently than many people. I see it as me being given the opportunity to become a better person by the exercise of virtue and self denial.
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