What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
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12-05-2014, 09:47 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 09:35 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 08:31 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  God has as much regard for our lives as a potter does for clay.

Next up: Jeremy breaks down morality for us.

In some small measure I understand why you think what you do.

Having endured much heartache and sorrow in my life and also witnessing it in others, often times the question of "why" arises. Why is the world the way it is? Why the suffering? Why did I have an abusive father? Why did my loved one have to tragically die because someone wanted to drink and drive.

There are some questions I have no answers to. However, out of all the worldviews that exist, Christianity's view is the most internally consistent and hopeful when it comes to the problem of evil.

It does not dismiss evil as just some sort of illusion to be overcome by "enlightenment", nor does it say that evil is merely something that some people use to label certain acts they do not like. It states that evil is real and affects us all in real ways. It also says God has done something about it and that we can have hope in the fact that God does care just as we would expect Him to care if He did indeed love us.

God did not make us so we could live a life robbed of the opportunity to practice virtue and righteousness. If He exists, and He did create us in His own image, we would expect for Him to intend for us to be like Him.

When I endure trial and difficulty I see it differently than many people. I see it as me being given the opportunity to become a better person by the exercise of virtue and self denial.

The fact that you find meaning and comfort in believing that god is the cause for the travails in your life is in no way evidence for the existence of that god.

And your defense of such a god is evidence of your inability to cope with reality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-05-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 09:35 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  There are some questions I have no answers to. However, out of all the worldviews that exist, Christianity's view is the most internally consistent and hopeful when it comes to the problem of evil.

It does not dismiss evil as just some sort of illusion to be overcome by "enlightenment", nor does it say that evil is merely something that some people use to label certain acts they do not like. It states that evil is real and affects us all in real ways. It also says God has done something about it and that we can have hope in the fact that God does care just as we would expect Him to care if He did indeed love us.

Christianity starts with a baseless claim that is illogical, and then addresses it with more baseless claims to remove the "problem" it created.

I wouldn't call that internally consistent, let alone the most internally consistent.
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12-05-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
I did not read the whole thread, but to the OP.

What do you mean "What if....." there are lots of people that have been instatutionalized for doing just that.
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12-05-2014, 10:04 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
Regarding my last post, I thought of something else I should have added:

Christianity doesn't have a single solution to the problem of evil. The Bible posits that there is a god that created everything and that it loves us. Some Christians maintain this god is all powerful and all loving, thus creating the problem of evil. How that problem is resolved varies based on the Christian (free will, you have to know dark to know light, best of all possible worlds, soul founding, etc), to varying degrees of credibility. So, Christianity in and of itself doesn't have a single, cohesive answer, and it's responsible for the "problem" it's trying to fix.

The thing is: if you don't assume that powerful creator gods exist, you don't have a problem of evil. That seems a lot more consistent to me.
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12-05-2014, 10:53 AM
What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(10-05-2014 07:51 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  … When you have rightly interpreted these passages and have read the bible in its entirety without fallaciously quote mining, then come back here and we will have a discussion.

(10-05-2014 07:51 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  … Actually I am quite confident that when properly understood and interpreted, the OT gives us the same picture of God as the NT does.
I take the OT at face value and do not attempt to gloss over what is written in it. I believe the entire bible is God's word, not just some of it. I believe it must be rightly interpreted and when it is, it gives us a more complete picture of who God is.

(12-05-2014 08:27 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  … The passages in question must be interpreted within their context if one desires to know what they mean. To do otherwise would be to commit the fallacy of quote-mining.

Our erstwhile correspondent Mr. Walker has several times insisted that scripture must be “rightly interpreted” in order to understand it. Aside from the fact that any documentation requiring “interpretation” is poorly written, and thus unlikely to have been authored by an “infallible” source, the notion of “right interpretation” raises a serious issue I’ve never seen answered by any biblical literalist:

WHAT informs the interpretation? It can’t be the bible because it’s the bible that needs interpretation. The basis for interpretation must therefore be sources outside the bible. But these sources are never identified, the chain of reasoning between the biblical passage and the sources that lead to “right interpretation” are never disclosed.

The most cursory observation of the antics of the religious shows one major trait they all share: they all disagree with each other about what constitutes “right interpretation”. Well, that’s where you wind up by not bothering to account for the ex-biblical sources brought to bear in fabricating a “right interpretation”.

What informs the interpretation? How can you tell you made the “right” one, when the bible is incapable of telling you and has forced you to draw from other sources without telling you what sources are properly relevant?

As I said, no biblical literalist has ever answered this question, and it is an indication of the biblical literalist’s general level of intellectual competence that this question doesn’t even occur to him to ask himself.
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12-05-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 10:53 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  WHAT informs the interpretation? It can’t be the bible because it’s the bible that needs interpretation. The basis for interpretation must therefore be sources outside the bible. But these sources are never identified, the chain of reasoning between the biblical passage and the sources that lead to “right interpretation” are never disclosed.

A nonfalsifiable entity known as the Holy Spirit.

And, yes, that answer does raise more questions than it answers.
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12-05-2014, 12:57 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2014 01:44 PM by djhall.)
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
Jeremy is, underneath it all, the adult equivalent of a child, all alone in the dark, squeezing his eyes tightly shut and rocking back and forth while repeating, "I'm not alone, I'm not alone, I'm not alone..." because maybe, if he believes it strongly enough, it will be true, and even if it isn't, he can ease the fear by believing it as long as he keeps his eyes squeezed shut and doesn't ruin the illusion. His belief comes from perceiving evidence through the filter of a deep need to believe.

Which sounds like more of an insult than it really is. We are all human. We are all limited by our own biased perception of reality. We can't really prove that we aren't the ones the ones with our eyes tightly closed repeating "we are alone, we are alone, we are alone.." because we cannot face the fear that comes with knowing that unchecked omnipotent power is in the hands of a god that is jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent bully.

The only real difference is, we have the intellectual perspective and honesty to accept the inevitable possibility that we may be wrong and refrain from claiming to know objective knowledge beyond our true limits. Without claiming universal truth, we have to factor "what if I'm right" and "what if I'm wrong" into our positions and decisions. But how many sermons does your typical church dedicate to considering the implications of their doctrines if they are wrong?

Jesus is my Stalker: He has graced me with his unconditional love, but if I reject it and refuse to love him in return, he will make my life Hell.
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12-05-2014, 01:25 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 12:57 PM)djhall Wrote:  Jeremy is, underneath it all, the adult equivalent of a child, all alone in the dark, squeezing his eyes tightly shut and rocking back and forth while repeating, "I'm not alone, I'm not alone, I'm not alone..." because maybe, if he believes it strongly enough, it will be true, and even if it isn't, he can ease the fear by believing it as long as he keeps his eyes squeezed shut and doesn't ruin the illusion. His belief comes from perceiving evidence through the filter of a deep need to believe.

Which sounds like more of an insult than it really is. We are all human. We are all limited by our own biased perception of reality. We can't really prove that we aren't the ones the ones with our eyes tightly closed repeating "we are alone, we are alone, we are alone.." because we cannot face the fear that comes with knowing that unchecked omnipotent power is in the hands of a god that is jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent bully.

The only real difference is, we have the intellectual perspective and honesty to accept the inevitable possibility that we may be wrong and refrain from claiming to know objective knowledge beyond our true limits. Without claiming universal truth, we have to factor "what if I'm right" and "what if I'm wrong" into our positions and decisions. How many sermons has your church dedicated to considering the implications of their doctrines if they are wrong?

At the very least, an intellectual standpoint is the most honest one.
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12-05-2014, 02:27 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 09:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  The fact that you find meaning and comfort in believing that god is the cause for the travails in your life is in no way evidence for the existence of that god.

And your defense of such a god is evidence of your inability to cope with reality.

You are right on the first count.

On the second, it seems to me to be a non-sequitur. Just because someone defends their beliefs does not mean that that is evidence that they are unable to cope with reality. If that were so, then you would have to apply it to yourself. You defend your views here on the regular.
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12-05-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 10:53 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(10-05-2014 07:51 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  … When you have rightly interpreted these passages and have read the bible in its entirety without fallaciously quote mining, then come back here and we will have a discussion.

(10-05-2014 07:51 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  … Actually I am quite confident that when properly understood and interpreted, the OT gives us the same picture of God as the NT does.
I take the OT at face value and do not attempt to gloss over what is written in it. I believe the entire bible is God's word, not just some of it. I believe it must be rightly interpreted and when it is, it gives us a more complete picture of who God is.

(12-05-2014 08:27 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  … The passages in question must be interpreted within their context if one desires to know what they mean. To do otherwise would be to commit the fallacy of quote-mining.

Our erstwhile correspondent Mr. Walker has several times insisted that scripture must be “rightly interpreted” in order to understand it. Aside from the fact that any documentation requiring “interpretation” is poorly written, and thus unlikely to have been authored by an “infallible” source, the notion of “right interpretation” raises a serious issue I’ve never seen answered by any biblical literalist:

WHAT informs the interpretation? It can’t be the bible because it’s the bible that needs interpretation. The basis for interpretation must therefore be sources outside the bible. But these sources are never identified, the chain of reasoning between the biblical passage and the sources that lead to “right interpretation” are never disclosed.

The most cursory observation of the antics of the religious shows one major trait they all share: they all disagree with each other about what constitutes “right interpretation”. Well, that’s where you wind up by not bothering to account for the ex-biblical sources brought to bear in fabricating a “right interpretation”.

What informs the interpretation? How can you tell you made the “right” one, when the bible is incapable of telling you and has forced you to draw from other sources without telling you what sources are properly relevant?

As I said, no biblical literalist has ever answered this question, and it is an indication of the biblical literalist’s general level of intellectual competence that this question doesn’t even occur to him to ask himself.

Your post belies your ignorance of the value of the various disciplines categorized under literary interpretation.

The following is taken from material used in USC Upstate's academic resource material:

https://www.uscupstate.edu/uploadedFiles...rature.pdf

And the following is taken from the Missouri University of Science and Technology's academic resource pool:

http://web.mst.edu/~gdoty/classes/concep...ature.html



In both of the links above you will see that in the Academy, professors of literature have quite a different view than you have regarding interpretation and what it means for literary texts.

You have stated that any text that needs to be interpreted is poorly written. This would be funny if it were not so sad that someone on TTA forum could actually say something so patently incorrect.

If your reasoning obtained, then many of the great literary works from history would be labeled as "poorly written".

Thank goodness no one holds your view in the Academy, and hopefully no one here holds it either.
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