What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
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12-05-2014, 02:51 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 02:42 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  In both of the links above you will see that in the Academy, professors of literature have quite a different view than you have regarding interpretation and what it means for literary texts.

Ah!

What a delightful little straw man. Hello, little man! My, but you were hastily built.

(12-05-2014 02:42 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  You have stated that any text that needs to be interpreted is poorly written. This would be funny if it were not so sad that someone on TTA forum could actually say something so patently incorrect.

If your reasoning obtained, then many of the great literary works from history would be labeled as "poorly written".

Thank goodness no one holds your view in the Academy, and hopefully no one here holds it either.

The salient distinction, which you either ignore or don't understand is that literature, as a category of artistic works, does not admit of singular interpretations. That is where the richness of analysis arises.

Scripture, on the other hand, by the definition of the faithful, does admit of only a single possible "correct" (literally orthodox) interpretation.

But, splendid equivocating conflation there, my good troll; most splendid indeed.

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12-05-2014, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2014 03:05 PM by Jeremy E Walker.)
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 10:04 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Regarding my last post, I thought of something else I should have added:

Christianity doesn't have a single solution to the problem of evil. The Bible posits that there is a god that created everything and that it loves us. Some Christians maintain this god is all powerful and all loving, thus creating the problem of evil. How that problem is resolved varies based on the Christian (free will, you have to know dark to know light, best of all possible worlds, soul founding, etc), to varying degrees of credibility. So, Christianity in and of itself doesn't have a single, cohesive answer, and it's responsible for the "problem" it's trying to fix.

The thing is: if you don't assume that powerful creator gods exist, you don't have a problem of evil. That seems a lot more consistent to me.

If you do not assume God, you still have the problem of evil (unless you deny that evil exists). Evil is a problem for us, for we live in a world languishing under the evil that men commit against each other and against nature itself.

For when I speak of the problem of evil, I speak of it being not only an issue that the Christian has to deal with while believing in an omnibenevolent God, but rather, as a fact of reality that we all have in some way been affected by and must explain.

And in this sense, Christianity offers the only hope. Christianity claims that evil is a departure from good, a true lack in something that was originally created good. It is like rust is to metal, rot to a tree, a cancer to an organ. It is real, but it does not exist in the absence of something good for it to malign.

There is no rust if there is no metal, no rot if there is no tree, no cancer if there is no organ. No evil if there is no good.

So Christians maintain that evil is a reality. Not only that, but that each individual human has been infected and affected by its malignity.

Christians claim that the time is drawing ever near when the evil that men have done to one another will be judged and each will receive what is due him for the deeds he has done in the body while living on this earth. Not only that, but that God has made a way for all men to be made right with God who until they have been, are in rebellion against Him.

Evil will be vanquished and those who love it will have eternity to love it. Those who hate it and have decided to cast their lot on the side of righteousness will have God to love and enjoy for eternity.

In the end, it all works out and all the wrongs are righted.

There is nothing like this in any other worldview.
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12-05-2014, 03:13 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 03:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 10:04 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Regarding my last post, I thought of something else I should have added:

Christianity doesn't have a single solution to the problem of evil. The Bible posits that there is a god that created everything and that it loves us. Some Christians maintain this god is all powerful and all loving, thus creating the problem of evil. How that problem is resolved varies based on the Christian (free will, you have to know dark to know light, best of all possible worlds, soul founding, etc), to varying degrees of credibility. So, Christianity in and of itself doesn't have a single, cohesive answer, and it's responsible for the "problem" it's trying to fix.

The thing is: if you don't assume that powerful creator gods exist, you don't have a problem of evil. That seems a lot more consistent to me.

If you do not assume God, you still have the problem of evil (unless you deny that evil exists). Evil is a problem for us, for we live in a world languishing under the evil that men commit against each other and against nature itself.

For when I speak of the problem of evil, I speak of it being not only an issue that the Christian has to deal with while believing in an omnibenevolent God, but rather, as a fact of reality that we all have in some way been affected by and must explain.

And in this sense, Christianity offers the only hope. Christianity claims that evil is a departure from good, a true lack in something that was originally created good. It is like rust is to metal, rot to a tree, a cancer to an organ. It is real, but it does not exist in the absence of something good for it to malign.

There is no rust if there is no metal, no rot if there is no tree, no cancer if there is no organ. No evil if there is no good.

So Christians maintain that evil is a reality. Not only that, but that each individual human has been infected and affected by its malignity.

Christians claim that the time is drawing ever near when the evil that men have done to one another will be judged and each will receive what is due him for the deeds he has done in the body while living on this earth. Not only that, but that God has made a way for all men to be made right with God who until they have been, are in rebellion against Him.

Evil will be vanquished and those who love it will have eternity to love it. Those who hate it and have decided to cast their lot on the side of righteousness will have God to love and enjoy for eternity.

In the end, it all works out and all the wrongs are righted.

There is nothing like this in any other worldview.

Laughat

Fuck that is funny this fucking fool doesn't even know what the Problem of Evil is.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-05-2014, 03:59 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 03:13 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Laughat

Fuck, that, is funny this, fucking, fool doesn't, even know what the Problem of, Evil is.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-05-2014, 04:15 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 03:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  If you do not assume God, you still have the problem of evil (unless you deny that evil exists). Evil is a problem for us, for we live in a world languishing under the evil that men commit against each other and against nature itself.

For when I speak of the problem of evil, I speak of it being not only an issue that the Christian has to deal with while believing in an omnibenevolent God, but rather, as a fact of reality that we all have in some way been affected by and must explain.

The Problem of Evil is the notion that evil exists along side an entity supposedly capable and willing to deal with it. If you're going to redefine commonly used terms, we're just going to end up talking past each other.
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12-05-2014, 05:48 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 02:27 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 09:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  The fact that you find meaning and comfort in believing that god is the cause for the travails in your life is in no way evidence for the existence of that god.

And your defense of such a god is evidence of your inability to cope with reality.

You are right on the first count.

On the second, it seems to me to be a non-sequitur. Just because someone defends their beliefs does not mean that that is evidence that they are unable to cope with reality. If that were so, then you would have to apply it to yourself. You defend your views here on the regular.

I am completely fed up with your seeming inability to comprehend simple sentences.

I did not say "defense of your beliefs", I said "your defense of such a god" - the one described in the Bible.

And what I defend here is rationality and evidence, two things that appear unintelligible to you.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-05-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 02:42 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 10:53 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  Our erstwhile correspondent Mr. Walker has several times insisted that scripture must be “rightly interpreted” in order to understand it. Aside from the fact that any documentation requiring “interpretation” is poorly written, and thus unlikely to have been authored by an “infallible” source, the notion of “right interpretation” raises a serious issue I’ve never seen answered by any biblical literalist:

WHAT informs the interpretation? It can’t be the bible because it’s the bible that needs interpretation. The basis for interpretation must therefore be sources outside the bible. But these sources are never identified, the chain of reasoning between the biblical passage and the sources that lead to “right interpretation” are never disclosed.

The most cursory observation of the antics of the religious shows one major trait they all share: they all disagree with each other about what constitutes “right interpretation”. Well, that’s where you wind up by not bothering to account for the ex-biblical sources brought to bear in fabricating a “right interpretation”.

What informs the interpretation? How can you tell you made the “right” one, when the bible is incapable of telling you and has forced you to draw from other sources without telling you what sources are properly relevant?

As I said, no biblical literalist has ever answered this question, and it is an indication of the biblical literalist’s general level of intellectual competence that this question doesn’t even occur to him to ask himself.

Your post belies your ignorance of the value of the various disciplines categorized under literary interpretation.

The following is taken from material used in USC Upstate's academic resource material:

https://www.uscupstate.edu/uploadedFiles...rature.pdf

And the following is taken from the Missouri University of Science and Technology's academic resource pool:

http://web.mst.edu/~gdoty/classes/concep...ature.html



In both of the links above you will see that in the Academy, professors of literature have quite a different view than you have regarding interpretation and what it means for literary texts.

You have stated that any text that needs to be interpreted is poorly written. This would be funny if it were not so sad that someone on TTA forum could actually say something so patently incorrect.

If your reasoning obtained, then many of the great literary works from history would be labeled as "poorly written".

Thank goodness no one holds your view in the Academy, and hopefully no one here holds it either.

So, we are in agreement that the Bible is a literary work. It is not history, it is not cosmology, it is not geology, it is literature. Glad we got that straight. Thumbsup

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-05-2014, 05:53 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 03:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(12-05-2014 10:04 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Regarding my last post, I thought of something else I should have added:

Christianity doesn't have a single solution to the problem of evil. The Bible posits that there is a god that created everything and that it loves us. Some Christians maintain this god is all powerful and all loving, thus creating the problem of evil. How that problem is resolved varies based on the Christian (free will, you have to know dark to know light, best of all possible worlds, soul founding, etc), to varying degrees of credibility. So, Christianity in and of itself doesn't have a single, cohesive answer, and it's responsible for the "problem" it's trying to fix.

The thing is: if you don't assume that powerful creator gods exist, you don't have a problem of evil. That seems a lot more consistent to me.

If you do not assume God, you still have the problem of evil (unless you deny that evil exists). Evil is a problem for us, for we live in a world languishing under the evil that men commit against each other and against nature itself.

For when I speak of the problem of evil, I speak of it being not only an issue that the Christian has to deal with while believing in an omnibenevolent God, but rather, as a fact of reality that we all have in some way been affected by and must explain.

And in this sense, Christianity offers the only hope. Christianity claims that evil is a departure from good, a true lack in something that was originally created good. It is like rust is to metal, rot to a tree, a cancer to an organ. It is real, but it does not exist in the absence of something good for it to malign.

There is no rust if there is no metal, no rot if there is no tree, no cancer if there is no organ. No evil if there is no good.

So Christians maintain that evil is a reality. Not only that, but that each individual human has been infected and affected by its malignity.

Christians claim that the time is drawing ever near when the evil that men have done to one another will be judged and each will receive what is due him for the deeds he has done in the body while living on this earth. Not only that, but that God has made a way for all men to be made right with God who until they have been, are in rebellion against Him.

Evil will be vanquished and those who love it will have eternity to love it. Those who hate it and have decided to cast their lot on the side of righteousness will have God to love and enjoy for eternity.

In the end, it all works out and all the wrongs are righted.

There is nothing like this in any other worldview.

Wow, you have inverted the meaning of "the problem of evil". For the atheist, there is no problem of evil - it is only a problem for the theist who believes in a benevolent god.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-05-2014, 06:10 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 03:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  There is nothing like this in any other worldview.

Except, of course, any other major modern religion, and most minor ones.

But sure, besides those billions of other peoples...

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12-05-2014, 08:46 PM
RE: What If Today A Person Murdered People And Said They Were Ordered To Do So By God?
(12-05-2014 08:27 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The passages in question must be interpreted within their context if one desires to know what they mean. To do otherwise would be to commit the fallacy of quote-mining.

YOU are the one quote-mining by attempting to skew the meaning of the passages with revisionist-bullshit "interpretations".



Quote:I have had the privilege of reading Paul Copan's book entitled: "Is God a Moral Monster?"


Oh, fucking Goodie.


Quote:He speaks on these issues with clarity and his writings are based on his knowledge of the cultural practices of the time in which these passages were applicable.

Meaning that you "interpret" -- meaning you perpetrate revisionist shell games -- by trying to spin these stories through a claim that your fairy-tale monster's "morals" 'were somehow linked to the "cultural practices" of iron-age goat fuckers.

IN THE PROCESS, YOU TOTALLY DESTROY YOUR OWN CLAIMS THAT YOUR FAIRY TALE MONSTER IS THE ARBITER OF YOUR MYTHICAL "OBJECTIVE MORALITY". WELL DON, MORON.






Quote:It is my view that God blahblahblah...

You haven't demonstrated that your horrific fairy tale monster actually exists, imbecile.

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