What Is Truth?
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24-08-2014, 02:25 PM
RE: What Is Truth?
I guess I could take the view that by it's own truth claim it itself is relative, however I can reason that that's not what the poster himself believes.

I think that the poster himself must have believed that the comment was universally applicable (e.g absolute) in order for it to be meaningful for him to post it to a forum.

So the fact of the claim's own existence here is evidence that the poster himself believes the claim has absolute truth.

Phil
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24-08-2014, 02:29 PM
RE: What Is Truth?
(24-08-2014 02:25 PM)phil.a Wrote:  I guess I could take the view that by it's own truth claim it itself is relative, however I can reason that that's not what the poster himself believes.

I think that the poster himself must have believed that the comment was universally applicable (e.g absolute) in order for it to be meaningful for him to post it to a forum.

So the fact of the claim's own existence here is evidence that the poster himself believes the claim has absolute truth.

Phil

In psychoanalysis veritas Big Grin

Anyway, I'll happily make the claim that "in my opinion all truth is relative". Now what?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-08-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: What Is Truth?
(24-08-2014 02:29 PM)morondog Wrote:  In psychoanalysis veritas Big Grin

Anyway, I'll happily make the claim that "in my opinion all truth is relative". Now what?

OK fair enough! So, do you see a distinction between Truth (an abstract concept) and "a particular truth" (a concrete concept).

My view would be that all particular human truths are relative, however Truth itself (the abstract quality or state) is absolute. Truth itself is the "container" for all relative truths.

So wether truth is absolute or relative depends a bit on how I am talking about it (from what perspective).

Phil
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24-08-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: What Is Truth?
(24-08-2014 02:45 PM)phil.a Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 02:29 PM)morondog Wrote:  In psychoanalysis veritas Big Grin

Anyway, I'll happily make the claim that "in my opinion all truth is relative". Now what?

OK fair enough! So, do you see a distinction between Truth (an abstract concept) and "a particular truth" (a concrete concept).

My view would be that all particular human truths are relative, however Truth itself (the abstract quality or state) is absolute. Truth itself is the "container" for all relative truths.

So wether truth is absolute or relative depends a bit on how I am talking about it (from what perspective).

Phil

Nuff said Smile

IMO Truth is a language concept inextricably tied to human experience. Universe doesn't give a shit for true and false, just *is* - does its own thing. Lucky for us our human concepts which help us to understand the world seem to have broad application in universe but doesn't make it compulsory for world to follow our intuition or our mathematics.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-08-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: What Is Truth?
(24-08-2014 02:50 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 02:45 PM)phil.a Wrote:  OK fair enough! So, do you see a distinction between Truth (an abstract concept) and "a particular truth" (a concrete concept).

My view would be that all particular human truths are relative, however Truth itself (the abstract quality or state) is absolute. Truth itself is the "container" for all relative truths.

So wether truth is absolute or relative depends a bit on how I am talking about it (from what perspective).

Phil

Nuff said Smile

IMO Truth is a language concept inextricably tied to human experience. Universe doesn't give a shit for true and false, just *is* - does its own thing. Lucky for us our human concepts which help us to understand the world seem to have broad application in universe but doesn't make it compulsory for world to follow our intuition or our mathematics.

OK, and that's fully compatible with what I said, since you seem to be talking about what I've referred to as the relative aspect of truth.

On the separate subject of absolute truth, do you think the laws of physics are the same wherever you are in space and time? If so - that would be an absolute truth. Empiricism is based on this being so!

Phil
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24-08-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: What Is Truth?
(24-08-2014 03:08 PM)phil.a Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 02:50 PM)morondog Wrote:  Nuff said Smile

IMO Truth is a language concept inextricably tied to human experience. Universe doesn't give a shit for true and false, just *is* - does its own thing. Lucky for us our human concepts which help us to understand the world seem to have broad application in universe but doesn't make it compulsory for world to follow our intuition or our mathematics.

OK, and that's fully compatible with what I said, since you seem to be talking about what I've referred to as the relative aspect of truth.

On the separate subject of absolute truth, do you think the laws of physics are the same wherever you are in space and time? If so - that would be an absolute truth. Empiricism is based on this being so!

Phil

Only in the middle scale, the rules change at the very large and very small so no there is no absolute truth it is all a matter of perspective.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-08-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: What Is Truth?
(24-08-2014 03:08 PM)phil.a Wrote:  On the separate subject of absolute truth, do you think the laws of physics are the same wherever you are in space and time? If so - that would be an absolute truth. Empiricism is based on this being so!

Phil

Not separate. Same topic.

Laws of physics have no obligation to be the same throughout spacetime, and to posit so is a very big assumption. Most scientists are aware of this. Empiricism is lousy fucken way to do shit but only way we got, so gotta live with it. Can't say anything about truth or not of homogeneity assumption - can say within observational error we think likely to be true but no guarantee.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-08-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: What Is Truth?
(24-08-2014 03:14 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Only in the middle scale, the rules change at the very large and very small so no there is no absolute truth it is all a matter of perspective.

OK, perhaps that's not such a good example.

Try this idea to separate the absolute from the relative:

The specifics of what's true is always relative to a perspective.

But is the simple word "Truth" meaningful for all humans?

Phil
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24-08-2014, 03:46 PM
RE: What Is Truth?
(24-08-2014 03:33 PM)phil.a Wrote:  
(24-08-2014 03:14 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Only in the middle scale, the rules change at the very large and very small so no there is no absolute truth it is all a matter of perspective.

OK, perhaps that's not such a good example.

Try this idea to separate the absolute from the relative:

The specifics of what's true is always relative to a perspective.

But is the simple word "Truth" meaningful for all humans?

Phil

*Semantics* cannot be used to draw *conclusions*. Full stop. A concept such as absolute truth is just a language thing. Can't say something (like Christees love to say) like "Absolute truth exists, *therefore* X" - it's meaningless to do that.

We have good theories of how universe works but all are constructions of human mind, limited by our position in the universe and our ability to see stuff and reason. Anyone who forgets that these theories are limited to our available knowledge and limited by our available ability to reason is liable to draw conclusions which are unjustified. There is no point to assert e.g. truth of Einstein's theories of gravitation, that they are really *true* (i.e. what the theory describes is *actually* what is there in the universe) and not just useful models for reality. At most can say that it is confirmed by experiment to some degree of confidence.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-08-2014, 12:09 AM
RE: What Is Truth?
"Truth, is Knight-errantry." Cervantes

Truth abides in the realm of forms--mathematics. Plato

Damn Plato.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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