What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-08-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 08:14 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 07:21 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I agree with you 100% that its a mixture of many different reasons sorry I didn't make that apparent I struggle to understand the citizens rights thingy but that's a difference in cultures laws etc I think. Self protection I didn't used to understand but I do now America is vast you cannot have cops around every corner and with weapons ownership enshrined in the constitution there are a lot floating around, sometimes in the hands of unsavoury individuals. Its about being pragmatic given your circumstances, (please correct me if I'm wrong though I'm just a Brit trying to understand the differences )

It's about being free.
Pragmatism leads to totalitarianism.
If all we have a right to are things we "NEED" then pretty soon we'll all be shuffling back and forth to factory jobs scanning the chip planted in the palm of our hand at birth and filling out paperwork to be able to deviate from our assigned activities.
I say what I NEED and WANT. There may be pragmatic reasons or not.

Ok, thanks for explaining your views much appreciatedThumbsup
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2017, 08:27 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2017 08:33 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 07:55 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 05:46 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  ...And given the number of guns in circulation 'vs' the number of guns that ever will harm another human being I suspect that guns would by any honest account, be hugely less dangerous than cars.

This is not an "honest" account; it's your ill-informed suspicion. Anyway, this tired old chestnut about cars causing more deaths than guns has been debunked a thousand times; didn't you know? People don't intentionally drive their cars at you with the sole purpose of killing you; they have what are known as "accidents". Facepalm

And consider these facts:

"In 2007, Missouri repealed its purchaser licensing and background check requirement, resulting in a 25% increase in firearm homicides and an overall 14% increase in murders over the subsequent five years. The rise in gun deaths is directly attributable to the repeal of the licensing and background check requirement as the firearm homicide rate during the same period did not increase in adjoining states nor did the national average rise.

By comparison, Connecticut continues to benefit from its handgun purchaser licensing law passed in 1994. A new study estimates that the law led to a 40% decline in homicides committed with a firearm during the 10 years following the implementation of the licensing requirement."

—National Catholic Reporter, 19 Oct 2015.

And even more damning, in the US, firearms were used to kill 13,286 people in 2015, excluding suicides. Or 10.30 per 100,000 in the US in 2014 with its slack gun control laws versus 0.93 per 100,000 here in Australia in 2013 with our very strict gun laws.

And I know lots of people who own firearms and have never met any who have shot a person with one outside of war. And we can bang away at this same back and forth about statistics again and bore the shit out of all of us. Me at least but the point is it's beside the point. My objections to gun control lie outside of it's efficacy or lack of.
We have the means to do away with 100% of all crime.
If we are willing to throw away all our rights to privacy and freedom of movement and assembly etc etc and I pretty much guarantee that the right to bear arms will come first.
Then in the name of pragmatism we march ever further down the rabbit hole.
Totalitarianism is a sure fire way to not only reduce crime but to eliminate it.
The bottom line is that I have never done harm to another human being with any of my firearms, nor have I ever known or met anyone who has, despite the fact that nearly everyone I know personally owns firearms. Taking firearms away from 100% of the gun owners that I know would have exactly 0% impact on reducing crime and whatever effects there would be by throwing our rights out the window is of no interest to me. Eroding personally rights in this way is dangerous and not worth whatever small gains they may produce. Gains that probably could be matched or exceeded without stepping on the toes of law abiding citizens.

[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2017, 08:38 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 08:27 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Eroding personally rights in this way is dangerous and not worth whatever small gains they may produce. Gains that probably could be matched or exceeded without stepping on the toes of law abiding citizens.

Well, but your controlled society is already a fact. They let you keep your guns, but make a big song and dance about it. Meantime while you're distracted fighting to the death to keep your toys they already track everything you do on and offline, they have your purchasing records, they have CCTV footage of you everywhere you go... You couldn't rebel if you tried. Personal freedoms? Sure, as long as you don't get up to anything that the powers that be don't like.

It's great if the powers that be are relatively benign - using their powers for good and not for evil - but that's impossible. The most incorruptible police force in the world will still use what tools they have to spy on their girlfriends etc. At worst dictatorships can use these exact same tools to find and punish dissidents. In that case, your guns won't help... So it seems like a bit of a non-starter as an argument. If the reason you're fighting for this "freedom" is so that you can "hold the government accountable" or some such pipe dream it's already a lost cause.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like morondog's post
28-08-2017, 08:52 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2017 08:57 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 08:38 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 08:27 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Eroding personally rights in this way is dangerous and not worth whatever small gains they may produce. Gains that probably could be matched or exceeded without stepping on the toes of law abiding citizens.

Well, but your controlled society is already a fact. They let you keep your guns, but make a big song and dance about it. Meantime while you're distracted fighting to the death to keep your toys they already track everything you do on and offline, they have your purchasing records, they have CCTV footage of you everywhere you go... You couldn't rebel if you tried. Personal freedoms? Sure, as long as you don't get up to anything that the powers that be don't like.

It's great if the powers that be are relatively benign - using their powers for good and not for evil - but that's impossible. The most incorruptible police force in the world will still use what tools they have to spy on their girlfriends etc. At worst dictatorships can use these exact same tools to find and punish dissidents. In that case, your guns won't help... So it seems like a bit of a non-starter as an argument. If the reason you're fighting for this "freedom" is so that you can "hold the government accountable" or some such pipe dream it's already a lost cause.

So "if you can't fight em join em"?
No sorry.
And I don't buy what you are saying.
The pendulum swings and it's happens via public outcry.
There have been serious assaults on personal freedoms in the past and they have met with public disdain. You either believe in the principles that the country was founded on or not. And if you do you fight for them. Or at the very least speak out about them and vote accordingly. Using the tools of the police to spy on their girlfriends remains illegal. It is via public opinion that this sort of totalitarianism happens.
It is gradually making legal the erosion of freedom. In the name of safety usually or fighting some group or foreign entity. This sort of argument is not a new one.
Unfortunately life is a balance between freedom and practicality.
And you are being very childish by engaging in loaded terms like "toys". And you know that.

[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2017, 08:55 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 08:52 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  And you are being very childish by engaging in loaded terms like "toys". And you know that.

Laugh out load So I should refer to them in some more dignified fashion? Would that make you feel better? ETA: PS I'm not arguing you should "join them" by any means. Just that your freedom that you're fighting for, the freedom to own guns, is meaningless, if the stated reason is so that you can "hold the government accountable" - your guns will not help you to do that.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
28-08-2017, 09:04 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 08:55 AM)morondog Wrote:  So I should refer to them in some more dignified fashion?

Big manly boom sticks? Willy substitutes? Much like "bikes"... Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2017, 09:05 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 08:55 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 08:52 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  And you are being very childish by engaging in loaded terms like "toys". And you know that.

Laugh out load So I should refer to them in some more dignified fashion? Would that make you feel better? ETA: PS I'm not arguing you should "join them" by any means. Just that your freedom that you're fighting for, the freedom to own guns, is meaningless, if the stated reason is so that you can "hold the government accountable" - your guns will not help you to do that.

I never suggested holding the Government accountable using guns.
I never suggested holding the Government accountable in any other way than by maintaining (or insisting on) an awareness that we are the Government.
The Government are public servants.
We as citizens are guaranteed certain rights and it is simply insane for us to willing throw away those rights.

[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2017, 09:08 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 09:04 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 08:55 AM)morondog Wrote:  So I should refer to them in some more dignified fashion?

Big manly boom sticks? Willy substitutes? Much like "bikes"... Drinking Beverage

Why does everything here need to devolve to childishness?
I really expected to find a higher level of intellect in the Atheist community.
I have no problem with childishness per se but as a substitute for genuine argument it is kind of pathetic.

[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2017, 09:14 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 09:08 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 09:04 AM)Vera Wrote:  Big manly boom sticks? Willy substitutes? Much like "bikes"... Drinking Beverage

Why does everything here need to devolve to childishness?
I really expected to find a higher level of intellect in the Atheist community.
I have no problem with childishness per se but as a substitute for genuine argument it is kind of pathetic.

Says the man who made on the of the DUMBEST joke about vaginas smelling like fish. The irony is.... probably lost on someone like you, actually Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2017, 09:27 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2017 09:32 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 09:08 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 09:04 AM)Vera Wrote:  Big manly boom sticks? Willy substitutes? Much like "bikes"... Drinking Beverage

Why does everything here need to devolve to childishness?
I really expected to find a higher level of intellect in the Atheist community.
I have no problem with childishness per se but as a substitute for genuine argument it is kind of pathetic.

(28-08-2017 09:14 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 09:08 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Why does everything here need to devolve to childishness?
I really expected to find a higher level of intellect in the Atheist community.
I have no problem with childishness per se but as a substitute for genuine argument it is kind of pathetic.

Says the man who made on the of the DUMBEST joke about vaginas smelling like fish. The irony is.... probably lost on someone like you, actually Drinking Beverage

I didn't use it as an argument.
And your idea is that gun owners are covering up insecurity?
That is a very old joke.
Sorry if it hurt your feelings.
I didn't realize you suffered the malady or I wouldn't have cracked wise.

[Image: g1371407736550188761.jpg]

[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: