What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
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28-08-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 12:20 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 12:08 PM)adey67 Wrote:  That's not strictly fair mate, while the gun threads are pretty aggressive and some other threads are too sometimes, for the most part people here are pretty cordial with a good sense of humour and irony and the mods and admin look out for everyone really well regardlessof their views but, stuff here is allowed that is not usually allowed on other forums including ad hominem attacks which can be confusing sometimes to newcomers not used to it, the trick is to ease in gently get established and find your niche then you'd be surprised what you can get away with saying. Wink tas someone once told me this forum isn't for everyone but that's a choice for you to make, personally I hope you stay. Smile

It all should work in service of the quality of discussion. I notice alternately a tendency for hair splitting over inconsequential things and people resorting to childishness. It's not confusing. It's an obstacle to what could be more interesting.
It's nice to have good interesting thought provoking discussion and a sharing of interests. I love classic rock for instance...




Yes people do split hairs in debate massively sometimes I wont deny that and I find it frustrating sometimes but also helpful in honing skills in the precision of debate and comment I have also experienced the most incredible kindness and reaching out during times of serious trouble I wouldn't swap this place for anything.
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28-08-2017, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2017 12:33 PM by adey67.)
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
Classic rock, nothing like it apart from Indy that is Wink
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28-08-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 11:58 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  People don't discuss here.
They argue.
Which is actually kind of surprising.
I've generally found that Atheists are more reasoned than average.
I had expected a refuge from the typical ax grinding and hair splitting of many discussion forums along with an appetite for black humor and delicious irreverence.
That marks my "real world" experience with atheists.
People need to keep calm. It's a fine line between stupid and clever

Physician, heal thyself. And then get over thyself. Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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28-08-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
Gun owners? They should be shot. Tongue

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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28-08-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 09:05 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  We as citizens are guaranteed certain rights and it is simply insane for us to willing throw away those rights.
Yeah, I think some USA folk get quite excited about their patriotic fueled sacraments, a.k.a "Declaration of Independence", United States Constitution and its Amendments (esp. the bill of rights) etc.

I think it serves both as a strength and a weakness of the USA.


By my view, "rights" are something entirely independent of governance documents and law.
Of course we try to get our legal rights to match our perception of "rights". But ultimately everything is a "right", but then we have conflicting "rights" my right to punch you conflicts with your right to be unharmed and we make judgement calls and concessions of some of our rights to ultimately meet a higher purpose. Problem is we can't all agree on what that higher purpose is.
Whether it is "safety, stability and prosperity of governed society"
Whether it is "to support god's law"
Whether it is "to uphold the vision of USA's founding fathers".
(list above is not exhaustive)

I'm not a USA person and I'm not religious so the last two don't apply to me at all.
I'm also quite progressive so I'm not really a supporter of Conservative ideas of holding onto tradition or intended purpose so the last item is not something that would ever appeal to me, even if I were a USA citizen.
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28-08-2017, 01:15 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2017 01:21 PM by BikerDude.)
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 01:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 09:05 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  We as citizens are guaranteed certain rights and it is simply insane for us to willing throw away those rights.
Yeah, I think some USA folk get quite excited about their patriotic fueled sacraments, a.k.a "Declaration of Independence", United States Constitution and its Amendments (esp. the bill of rights) etc.

I think it serves both as a strength and a weakness of the USA.


By my view, "rights" are something entirely independent of governance documents and law.
Of course we try to get our legal rights to match our perception of "rights". But ultimately everything is a "right", but then we have conflicting "rights" my right to punch you conflicts with your right to be unharmed and we make judgement calls and concessions of some of our rights to ultimately meet a higher purpose. Problem is we can't all agree on what that higher purpose is.
Whether it is "safety, stability and prosperity of governed society"
Whether it is "to support god's law"
Whether it is "to uphold the vision of USA's founding fathers".
(list above is not exhaustive)

I'm not a USA person and I'm not religious so the last two don't apply to me at all.
I'm also quite progressive so I'm not really a supporter of Conservative ideas of holding onto tradition or intended purpose so the last item is not something that would ever appeal to me, even if I were a USA citizen.

There are conceptual rights. That's not at issue.
The issue are actual legal rights.
The bill of rights.
People in the US get "excited" about the bill of rights because it defines how we live.
The yard stick used to measure whether a law or act of governance can stand is whether it is constitutional. It's nice to talk about things like "Conservative Ideals" etc but it's an entirely different category from the protections afforded by the constitution against unlawful search and seizure, or privacy, or yes the right to bear arms and many other protections. I am by no means a flag waver.
But I do think it is extremely important to stand up for our freedoms. Freedom of speech, assembly, on and on.
If we don't they will disappear.
Conceptual rights are lovely to talk about but if they kick in your door it's not gonna do you much good.
But luckily we still live in a country of laws and those laws still stand or fall based on their constitutionality.
Constitutionally we have a right to bear arms.

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28-08-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 01:15 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  There are conceptual rights. That's not at issue.
The issue are actual legal rights.
The bill of rights.
People in the US get "excited" about the bill of rights because it defines how we live.
The yard stick used to measure whether a law or act of governance can stand is whether it is constitutional. It's nice to talk about things like "Conservative Ideals" etc but it's an entirely different category from the protections afforded by the constitution against unlawful search and seizure, or privacy, or yes the right to bear arms and many other protections. I am by no means a flag waver.
But I do think it is extremely important to stand up for our freedoms. Freedom of speech, assembly, on and on.
If we don't they will disappear.
Conceptual rights are lovely to talk about but if they kick in your door it's not gonna do you much good.
But luckily we still live in a country of laws and those laws still stand or fall based on their constitutionality.
Constitutionally we have a right to bear arms.
You have the power to change your constitution. You have the ability to form amendments.

I'm all for freedom.
But there is a conflict with regards to guns.
Freedom to own guns is not actually a thing.

What many people who support gun ownership argue about is the freedom to protect themselves. They believe gun ownership improves their ability to protect themselves.

But of course, if gun ownership increases the chances that the crims have guns increases then you have actually reduced your chances of survival. (I understand this is a debatable point).
But from what you have said in previous posts in this thread, I take it that you are more interested in your legal rights and legal freedoms rather than your survivability.

If I was to try and have a conversation or debate with you on this, I'd try and work out which freedoms you would be willing to concede on for the sake of others in society? For example women (wives and girlfriends) in particular are demonstrably more often victims rather than saved due to the freedom of the people to possess firearms.
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28-08-2017, 01:41 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 01:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 01:15 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  There are conceptual rights. That's not at issue.
The issue are actual legal rights.
The bill of rights.
People in the US get "excited" about the bill of rights because it defines how we live.
The yard stick used to measure whether a law or act of governance can stand is whether it is constitutional. It's nice to talk about things like "Conservative Ideals" etc but it's an entirely different category from the protections afforded by the constitution against unlawful search and seizure, or privacy, or yes the right to bear arms and many other protections. I am by no means a flag waver.
But I do think it is extremely important to stand up for our freedoms. Freedom of speech, assembly, on and on.
If we don't they will disappear.
Conceptual rights are lovely to talk about but if they kick in your door it's not gonna do you much good.
But luckily we still live in a country of laws and those laws still stand or fall based on their constitutionality.
Constitutionally we have a right to bear arms.
You have the power to change your constitution. You have the ability to form amendments.

I'm all for freedom.
But there is a conflict with regards to guns.
Freedom to own guns is not actually a thing.

What many people who support gun ownership argue about is the freedom to protect themselves. They believe gun ownership improves their ability to protect themselves.

But of course, if gun ownership increases the chances that the crims have guns increases then you have actually reduced your chances of survival. (I understand this is a debatable point).
But from what you have said in previous posts in this thread, I take it that you are more interested in your legal rights and legal freedoms rather than your survivability.

If I was to try and have a conversation or debate with you on this, I'd try and work out which freedoms you would be willing to concede on for the sake of others in society? For example women (wives and girlfriends) in particular are demonstrably more often victims rather than saved due to the freedom of the people to possess firearms.

I'm not a gun owner, but I know enough to know that there is a bit more to it than personal safety/protection. At the time when the second amendment was written and adopted, the fledgling USA had just fought and won a war for independence from an oppressive government. They feared that their own new government could become oppressive, and part of the reason for the right to bear arms was protection against that government.

Of course, today's US government/military is so heavily armed that private citizens (whether alone or in a group) have zero chance of defending themselves against it, but not all of them will admit that. Some people still think that the right to bear arms gives them protection from their own government. This is no longer a major reason for gun ownership, but it hasn't completely died out either.
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28-08-2017, 01:44 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2017 01:56 PM by BikerDude.)
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 01:32 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 01:15 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  There are conceptual rights. That's not at issue.
The issue are actual legal rights.
The bill of rights.
People in the US get "excited" about the bill of rights because it defines how we live.
The yard stick used to measure whether a law or act of governance can stand is whether it is constitutional. It's nice to talk about things like "Conservative Ideals" etc but it's an entirely different category from the protections afforded by the constitution against unlawful search and seizure, or privacy, or yes the right to bear arms and many other protections. I am by no means a flag waver.
But I do think it is extremely important to stand up for our freedoms. Freedom of speech, assembly, on and on.
If we don't they will disappear.
Conceptual rights are lovely to talk about but if they kick in your door it's not gonna do you much good.
But luckily we still live in a country of laws and those laws still stand or fall based on their constitutionality.
Constitutionally we have a right to bear arms.
You have the power to change your constitution. You have the ability to form amendments.

I'm all for freedom.
But there is a conflict with regards to guns.
Freedom to own guns is not actually a thing.

What many people who support gun ownership argue about is the freedom to protect themselves. They believe gun ownership improves their ability to protect themselves.

But of course, if gun ownership increases the chances that the crims have guns increases then you have actually reduced your chances of survival. (I understand this is a debatable point).
But from what you have said in previous posts in this thread, I take it that you are more interested in your legal rights and legal freedoms rather than your survivability.

If I was to try and have a conversation or debate with you on this, I'd try and work out which freedoms you would be willing to concede on for the sake of others in society? For example women (wives and girlfriends) in particular are demonstrably more often victims rather than saved due to the freedom of the people to possess firearms.

The right to own firearms is a right as long as it remains in the Constitution.
That is certainly a thing.
It's the freedom to own a firearm for whatever reason I might choose.
I don't believe that I need to concede any of my rights for the sake of others.
The constitution and the bill of rights are not meant to be a moving playing field.
It is possible to change it but the very concept of a constitutional democracy depends on it's unchanging nature. It defines pretty basic rights that put limit on the powers of Government. One of them is that the "right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
Once again if we are in the market for throwing out rights in the name of security then why not throw out the whole bunch of them. It would certainly empower the police and government to eliminate crime. But the constitution was written with an eye toward those mistakes having been made in the past.
We were and are a country founded on revolutionary ideals and the task that the founders set out to tackle was how to limit the powers of government to ensure the citizenry a measure of self governance.
If we begin the march toward giving up rights for the false protection of big brother we are headed down a slippery slope.
I would say that resorting to eroding of personal rights is at best the lazy solution.
I differ from most of the gun community in that I support sensible gun laws.
Background checks etc. But I don't think we should mess with the constitution.
Again it's not a question of the efficacy of gun laws. It is beside the point.

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28-08-2017, 01:53 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 01:44 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  The constitution and the bill of rights are not meant to be a moving playing field.

Funny that it has been changed (i.e., amended) 27 times, including the bill of rights, which was itself a list of amendments to the original constitution. If it was intended to be "written in stone", they wouldn't have included the possibility of amendment. The founders, unlike some people today, realized that times change, and laws may need to change with them.
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