What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
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29-08-2017, 05:41 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2017 05:50 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(29-08-2017 12:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 05:10 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  When you open that up to change there is no bedrock.
That is why it is so very very rare and only in the most dire of circumstances.

Nice fear-mongering, Mr Not-Childish Dodgy

So would you say a dire circumstance was for example, armed gangs, regular mass shootings and so forth? I can remember a thread here where someone seriously mentioned, offhandedly, that they always went to the movie theater armed in case something went down. That is NOT FUCKING NORMAL.

You may well be able to argue that having guns is necessary, but your incessant bleating about how sacrosanct your constitution is is ridiculous. It is *not* sacrosanct. Unless you come up with a more effective argument and say *why* you're so dead set on maintaining your constitutional right to guns, you'll eventually lose the war of words.

It has nothing to do with necessary.
And the constitution better be sacrosanct or there is set to be some very very big changes coming. I continue to be amazed at people's wearing of rose color glasses.
They say that if you want the attention of a donkey you bring a 2x4 down between it's eyes. This apparently doesn't work on most people. I would have thought that Donald Trump and the rise of hate groups and on and on would begin to dawn on people.
So many of the gains that have been made over the last 50 years have been won through arguments of constitutionality, not democracy. Civil rights, LGBT rights, gay marriage and maintaining the guarantees of things like separation of church and state have made it possible to even have a forum for Atheist discussions but somehow so many people seem oblivious to the tenuous nature of all of these freedoms. The modern world that we live in now is conceptually a New Orleans where the tide is held back by the freedoms guaranteed by the constitution. Erase that or open it to debate and where are we gonna end up? Not any place that the average person identifying as an atheist will want to be. We are a minority. The constitution is our friend.

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29-08-2017, 05:44 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 08:54 PM)JesseB Wrote:  I only have problems with gun owners who shoot houses with people inside (my parents house is full of bullet holes from drunk ranchers who don't watch where they shoot, despite my poor relationship with my parents I get pissed off at the ranchers who do this) Or whatever asshole thinks it's ok to shoot his shotgun often right behind my house. Fucker could at least drive off into the woods where the noise won't bother no one.

And I don't really like when people shoot other people, unless the other people are stupid.... OH all right I don't want the stupid people to die either (it's a joke)

Aside from that I couldn't give a flying fuck one way or another.

That is a crime.
The cure is the issue.
Fighting against gun crime by banning guns is like fighting Obesity by banning knives and forks.

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29-08-2017, 05:48 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(29-08-2017 05:41 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  The constitution is your friend.

And it can be ammended. You accuse others of wearing rose coloured glasses but without an ammendment you'd still have legal slavery. Hell, even your right to guns is an ammendment. So it's a bit rich to be arguing that it's eternal and unchanging.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-08-2017, 05:48 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 07:35 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 05:10 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  I find if amazing that people in this context would seriously suggest opening the constitution for revision. If changes to the constitution were seriously opened today.
Reproductive rights? Toast. Abortion would be constitutionally illegal.
Separation of Church and State? Bye bye.
LGBT rights? Gone.
What kind of changes do you think would be made? The one amendment that would be safe would be the second. But religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly privacy would all evaporate.
The whole value of the constitution is to protect the interests of the few from the tyranny of the majority. When you open it up to revision that protection is gone.
Basically all of the gains for minorities have been won on constitutional arguments.
Open the constitution to revision and all those gains would evaporate. There is a reason why it's called a constitution.
It is supposed to be nearly unchangeable. It is supposed to capture principles upon which we base all other laws.
When you open that up to change there is no bedrock.
That is why it is so very very rare and only in the most dire of circumstances.

That's probably why amendments require a 2/3 majority. If it doesn't seem common-sense to most people, it doesn't pass.

I'd be willing to bet that every example you've presented here could not garner 67% support. And that means that your objection doesn't really address her point, which is that even the deified Founding Fathers understood that they could not design a governing document that would stand the test of time.

That which cannot bend will eventually break. That is Grasshopper's point, and it is very valid.

Yet they did design the document with the intention that it be what it is designed to be. A constitution.
a body of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or other organization is acknowledged to be governed.

While this is open to changes the more open to changes it is the less effective it is in providing a check upon pure democracy.
This is why it is purposefully difficult to change.

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29-08-2017, 05:55 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(28-08-2017 09:13 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 09:06 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  There is only one fundamental creed upon which we base all others - nemo residio. Our guiding principle for realizing that creed is "Don't be a dick." It's kinda like what we were taught when we were 5 yo.

Waiiiiiiit can you explain this? Cause... being a dick is totally legal. And at time's it's something I would encourage.

My personal philosophy is, don't be a dick.... Unless they fucking deserve it. Maybe I'm missing something here so can you explain what you mean Girly?


Also, I'd like to add. Personally I think the freedom of speech is FAR more important than the right to own guns. I get the argument that some postulate that without guns free speech is gone, and yes that historically has been pretty true. But what's your rifle gonna do against a missile. Trust me if they wanted your guns they could take them by force. The US military is pretty brainwashed and will happily murder anyone they are ordered to, even American civilians.

This is of course my biased opinion based on having a psychopathic brainwashed murderous fuck of a father trained to terrorize and beat children by the US Marine Corps. I've seen plenty of other examples of what the military does to soldiers, I'm not talking war I'm talking boot camp. So no I don't blindly trust them. Idk complicated issue. But then Stivil has shown he's not worth talking to. He's kinda an idiot and incapable of nuance or higher order thought and analysts so I'm not sure why you're wasting your time on him @Biker.

I agree but the right to own guns is not predicated on the any utility.
Even the utility of safeguarding rights like freedom of speech.
It is about the relationship of the citizen to the powers of Government.
As a law abiding citizen it is not within the powers of the Government to limit my ability to bear arms. They are not big brother. They are civil servant who work for the citizenry and are charged with defending the constitution. Literally.
Most Government officials take an oath that states exactly that.
They say that a person's right to swing their arm ends at another person's nose.
Banning guns in like preventing people from balling their hand into a fist because the MIGHT hit someone. It's an overstep.

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29-08-2017, 05:57 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2017 06:07 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(29-08-2017 05:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 05:41 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  The constitution is your friend.

And it can be ammended. You accuse others of wearing rose coloured glasses but without an ammendment you'd still have legal slavery. Hell, even your right to guns is an ammendment. So it's a bit rich to be arguing that it's eternal and unchanging.

I'm not arguing that it's eternal and unchanging. I'm arguing that we better pray that it is or it won't be the right to bear arms that is in danger.
We should be fighting for all of the rights that we are entitled to or we are going to see a very different world than the one we enjoy now.
We should be fighting with all of our might for the rights guaranteed to us as citizens.
As soon as you start suggesting changes to the constitution the guiding principle becomes public opinion.
I'd suggest that people take a serious look at where that would lead.
All of the hard won battles fought over the last 50 or so years will be in very very serious Jeopardy.
I don't know how the current state of affairs could suggest anything else.
But even all of this just doesn't seem to penetrate.
I guess people will get it when they kick in their door.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

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29-08-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
FFS. All you're doing is fear mongering.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-08-2017, 06:45 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(29-08-2017 06:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  FFS. All you're doing is fear mongering.

That's debatable.
But I mean cmon.
What is it going to take?
And after all the only thing I'm selling is freedom.
I support a lot of freedoms of others where I don't really have a dog in the race.
I couldn't really care less on a personal level about gay rights. But as a matter of principle I consider it worth fighting for. The Government (and any majority of the electorate for that matter) just don't get to decide some things. They are a matter of personal freedom. I may not agree with what you say but I'd fight with my life for your right to say it. And I may not agree with the way everyone lives but I'd fight with my life for people's right to choose it for themselves.

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29-08-2017, 07:00 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(29-08-2017 04:58 AM)BackSlider Wrote:  Check out SpotCrime.com for your area.
Keep in mind some police departments choose not to share all their statistics with this site.

Bloody hell.

(29-08-2017 05:31 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 04:07 AM)Banjo Wrote:  There are no laws where you live?

Can someone tell me how dangerous their area is that they need a concealed firearm for protection?

I am very curious.

It's not about need. It's about rights.

Really.

Consider

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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29-08-2017, 07:28 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(29-08-2017 06:45 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  They are a matter of personal freedom. I may not agree with what you say but I'd fight with my life for your right to say it. And I may not agree with the way everyone lives but I'd fight with my life for people's right to choose it for themselves.

And that is why America for all it's faults is a shining light to the world Smile Truly one of the most admirable traits of many of your nation's citizens. (Full disclosure, I'm not American. I've allowed the deception to continue for a while since it amuses me.)

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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