What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
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13-06-2017, 07:37 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 07:21 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 07:04 AM)SYZ Wrote:  This works out to an average of 7.81 childhood deaths per day; additionally another 8.86 children are unintentionally shot—but survive—every day in the US.

The whole "but what about the children?" argument is a non-starter and an appeal to emotion. Doesn't really fly with me, personally.

To me it's a legal argument: whether a citizen, who is not a member of a well-regulated militia, has the right to own a firearm.

As well, I'm personally all about pragmatism; I'm all about the result, regardless of political bent.

If everyone had a firearm and that kept everybody safe, then I'd be all for gun ownership.

But that's simply not the result. More guns = more gun deaths and injuries. It's a straight line between the two.

Should guns be banned? No, of course not. This right-wing frothing-at-the-mouth hyperbole of "regulation means confiscation" is just like the "but what about the children?" example; an appeal to emotion that's not really an argument.

Nobody's coming to take anyone's guns.

And there's nothing wrong with having a ban on assault weapons, proper training and background checks.

After all, I don't trust most of the drivers on the road behind the wheel of their cars. Some do terribly stupid things. To give those very same people a "right" to own a firearm without proper checks etc is a recipe for disaster. And gun deaths in the US, right now, are a disaster.
Another "Fuck dead kids".
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13-06-2017, 07:38 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 07:21 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 07:04 AM)SYZ Wrote:  This works out to an average of 7.81 childhood deaths per day; additionally another 8.86 children are unintentionally shot—but survive—every day in the US.

The whole "but what about the children?" argument is a non-starter and an appeal to emotion. Doesn't really fly with me, personally.

To me it's a legal argument: whether a citizen, who is not a member of a well-regulated militia, has the right to own a firearm.

As well, I'm personally all about pragmatism; I'm all about the result, regardless of political bent.

If everyone had a firearm and that kept everybody safe, then I'd be all for gun ownership.

But that's simply not the result. More guns = more gun deaths and injuries. It's a straight line between the two.

Should guns be banned? No, of course not. This right-wing frothing-at-the-mouth hyperbole of "regulation means confiscation" is just like the "but what about the children?" example; an appeal to emotion that's not really an argument.

Nobody's coming to take anyone's guns.

And there's nothing wrong with having a ban on assault weapons, proper training and background checks.

After all, I don't trust most of the drivers on the road behind the wheel of their cars. Some do terribly stupid things. To give those very same people a "right" to own a firearm without proper checks etc is a recipe for disaster. And gun deaths in the US, right now, are a disaster.

Bullshit "appeal to emotion" counter argument, I am quite sure the parents of the Newtown victims would disagree that. Thank you for devaluing their lives and shitting on the pain the parents still suffer from.

Take care of yourself Han, I guess that is what you are best at. That is how the far right sound. Out of touch and no grip on reality.

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13-06-2017, 07:39 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 05:50 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 05:43 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  Gawdzilla, I have written before that the deaths of innocents is not reason enough to limit the liberty and responsibility to "keep and bear arms" as we are requested to do by the framers of our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Only applies if you're in the militia, hence the phrase, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." and applies specifically in times of insurrection or possible invasion.

Funny how so many, many people "conveniently" forget that part of the amendment.

It's not as cut and dried as you're claiming, though. People have been arguing about that clause since it was written, and no consensus has formed yet. It can be argued that a militia is, by definition, an ad hoc fighting force drawn from the general population, and that this can only work if the general population is armed (as most were back when this clause was written). It can also be argued that, with the powerful standing army now in existence, a militia is superfluous. Good luck trying to nail down what the second amendment "really means" in today's world (or even what it meant in the 18th century). That's a job for the Supreme Court, and even they struggle with it.
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13-06-2017, 07:42 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
For purposes of this post I am a person who likes to drive very fast and think speed limits are stupid.

simulation:

As I'm driving down a country road at 101.5 mph I realize that freedom is the right to drive at whatever speed I want to drive at. "Speed limits" are a violation of my rights! As I close my eyes and think about driving over the bastards at the state capital I blow a stop sign and T-bone a school bus. Forty-seven dead kids. Fuck 'em, I can still drive as fast as I want.

/simulation
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13-06-2017, 07:45 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 07:39 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 05:50 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Only applies if you're in the militia, hence the phrase, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." and applies specifically in times of insurrection or possible invasion.

Funny how so many, many people "conveniently" forget that part of the amendment.

It's not as cut and dried as you're claiming, though. People have been arguing about that clause since it was written, and no consensus has formed yet. It can be argued that a militia is, by definition, an ad hoc fighting force drawn from the general population, and that this can only work if the general population is armed (as most were back when this clause was written). It can also be argued that, with the powerful standing army now in existence, a militia is superfluous. Good luck trying to nail down what the second amendment "really means" in today's world (or even what it meant in the 18th century). That's a job for the Supreme Court, and even they struggle with it.

Regulate is a word in the 2nd so that is cut and dry.

They only had muskets when they wrote that so that would be like still insisting on telephone regulations today based on Bell's invention.

We also don't have the same vehicle regulations we had when the Model T was made.

Laws have to be updated to change with changing technology.

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13-06-2017, 07:47 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 07:37 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Another "Fuck dead kids".

(13-06-2017 07:38 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Bullshit "appeal to emotion" counter argument, I am quite sure the parents of the Newtown victims would disagree that. Thank you for devaluing their lives and shitting on the pain the parents still suffer from.

Nobody - least of all me - is discounting the deaths of children.

I'm just saying that, as an argument, it's simply not effective. It just serves to raise the temperature but does nothing to actually develop a cogent argument.
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13-06-2017, 07:51 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 07:47 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 07:37 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Another "Fuck dead kids".

(13-06-2017 07:38 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Bullshit "appeal to emotion" counter argument, I am quite sure the parents of the Newtown victims would disagree that. Thank you for devaluing their lives and shitting on the pain the parents still suffer from.

Nobody - least of all me - is discounting the deaths of children.

I'm just saying that, as an argument, it's simply not effective. It just serves to raise the temperature but does nothing to actually develop a cogent argument.
If you think nobody's discounting dead kids you are singularly clueless. Read the thread.
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13-06-2017, 07:51 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 07:39 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It can be argued that a militia is, by definition, an ad hoc fighting force drawn from the general population, and that this can only work if the general population is armed (as most were back when this clause was written). It can also be argued that, with the powerful standing army now in existence, a militia is superfluous.

The Militia Act of 1792 makes the definition of militia abundantly clear, and also makes it clear that it's specifically created for insurrection or the threat of foreign invasion. Source: http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm
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13-06-2017, 07:52 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 07:51 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 07:47 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Nobody - least of all me - is discounting the deaths of children.

I'm just saying that, as an argument, it's simply not effective. It just serves to raise the temperature but does nothing to actually develop a cogent argument.
If you think nobody's discounting dead kids you are singularly clueless. Read the thread.

I'm on your side, my friend.
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13-06-2017, 08:00 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 07:52 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 07:51 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  If you think nobody's discounting dead kids you are singularly clueless. Read the thread.

I'm on your side, my friend.

My point stands.
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