What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
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13-06-2017, 08:15 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 05:50 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 05:43 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  Gawdzilla, I have written before that the deaths of innocents is not reason enough to limit the liberty and responsibility to "keep and bear arms" as we are requested to do by the framers of our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Only applies if you're in the militia, hence the phrase, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." and applies specifically in times of insurrection or possible invasion.

Funny how so many, many people "conveniently" forget that part of the amendment.

The militia was (and is) every able-bodied male citizen. That they be ready, they must have arms - their own. That is what 'militia' means in the 2nd Amendment.

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13-06-2017, 08:19 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 07:42 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  For purposes of this post I am a person who likes to drive very fast and think speed limits are stupid.

simulation:

As I'm driving down a country road at 101.5 mph I realize that freedom is the right to drive at whatever speed I want to drive at. "Speed limits" are a violation of my rights! As I close my eyes and think about driving over the bastards at the state capital I blow a stop sign and T-bone a school bus. Forty-seven dead kids. Fuck 'em, I can still drive as fast as I want.

/simulation

Yet another really stupid argument.
Your actions are against the law, gun ownership is not.

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13-06-2017, 08:21 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 08:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  The militia was (and is) every able-bodied male citizen. That they be ready, they must have arms - their own. That is what 'militia' means in the 2nd Amendment.

No, that's incorrect. We've been through this. The Militia Act of 1792 outlined, very specifically, what a militia was and what it wasn't, it's mandate and restrictions, including the type of weaponry and outfitting of said weaponry.

http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

*edit to add* The definition of a militia really isn't in the spirit of the thread, so rather than be involved further in a thread hijack, I'll bow out here.
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13-06-2017, 08:27 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 03:24 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 03:15 PM)KUSA Wrote:  It is one reason but not every reason.
At the time it was the reason.

No, it was the reason that the existing right would not be infringed by the government.
The Second Amendment does not grant a right, it protects an existing right.

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13-06-2017, 08:29 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 04:39 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 04:30 PM)KUSA Wrote:  The purpose of the bill of rights was to put restrictions on the government. It was considered a natural right to defend oneself with arms. The part about the militia was simply one large scale reason to protect the right. It was not inclusive.

Perhaps, but I'm not as confident as you are that I know what the intentions of the founders were. It's funny that today's conservatives (in general -- I'm not singling you out) make a big deal out of going by what the Constitution says and not trying to "interpret" it -- yet they interpret the hell out of the 2nd amendment. What it says is that the need for a militia is the reason for the right to bear arms. We could argue for centuries about what it means.

No, it does not say that. It states one reason why an existing right should not be infringed.
That phrase was, in fact, a contentious issue at the Convention.

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13-06-2017, 08:36 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 08:21 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 08:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  The militia was (and is) every able-bodied male citizen. That they be ready, they must have arms - their own. That is what 'militia' means in the 2nd Amendment.

No, that's incorrect. We've been through this. The Militia Act of 1792 outlined, very specifically, what a militia was and what it wasn't, it's mandate and restrictions, including the type of weaponry and outfitting of said weaponry.

http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

*edit to add* The definition of a militia really isn't in the spirit of the thread, so rather than be involved further in a thread hijack, I'll bow out here.

You seem to overlook two things.
One, that the militia is entirely composed of civilians called upon in times of threat to serve, and,
Two, that the weaponry described is a minimum required, not a limit.

That act is also a legal basis for wartime military conscription.

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13-06-2017, 09:20 PM
What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
Thanks for chiming in Chas.
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14-06-2017, 05:56 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 01:56 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Are "the people" the "militia"?

The People are the Militia. The Bill of Rights are for the People, all the People and not just a select few. The First Amendment and all the rest are Rights of the People. The People as in "We the People."

Well-regulated means to be equipped with up-to-date weaponry.

Why should this opinion be completely wrong and those who believe the Militia is the National Guard be completely correct?

Is the First only for freedom of the press?

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14-06-2017, 06:02 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 05:56 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 01:56 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Are "the people" the "militia"?

The People are the Militia. The Bill of Rights are for the People, all the People and not just a select few. The First Amendment and all the rest are Rights of the People. The People as in "We the People."

Well-regulated means to be equipped with up-to-date weaponry.

Why should this opinion be completely wrong and those who believe the Militia is the National Guard be completely correct?

Is the First only for freedom of the press?
Having trained a fair few people I'm very glad we don't have "all" the people in the military. But I have to ask, does the 2A say babes in arms should have arms?

And "well-regulated" did NOT mean "up-to-date weaponry", it meant they would be drilled regularly. "Up-to-date" muzzle loaders? Seriously?
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14-06-2017, 06:12 AM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(13-06-2017 08:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 05:50 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Only applies if you're in the militia, hence the phrase, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." and applies specifically in times of insurrection or possible invasion.

Funny how so many, many people "conveniently" forget that part of the amendment.

The militia was (and is) every able-bodied male citizen. That they be ready, they must have arms - their own. That is what 'militia' means in the 2nd Amendment.

Almost..

It's " able bodied male between the age of eighteen and fourty five"

.......................................

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