What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
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14-06-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 12:21 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 12:15 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Brought this over from another thread to keep it from devolving into another gun debate.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think it's cowardly to want to protect oneself or family with a firearm. If the terrorists or nut jobs or criminal have one, or even if they only have a knife, I don't want to be stuck throwing chairs and cups (like in Britain last week). I'm 6'2" and spent enough time in hand to hand combat training in the military and police fields to defend myself against an unarmed attacker if needed.

There were 67,000 female rape victims in 2012 in the U.S. (reported). Any wonder why my wife carries a gun?

2015 in Paris, terrorists managed to kill 130 people despite strict gun control and they had no way to protect themselves. In Britain the fuckers just used 12 inch knives and they had no way to protect themselves.

Snowflake? Hardly. If the time comes for me to use my gun, I won't be the one pissing myself begging for mercy. I have the training and the will to handle the situation. I will fight back. I refuse to be a victim. That's not cowardly, that is bravery. And there are millions just like me. We're known as republicans. Nice to meet you.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk...eople-die/

Bullshit.

Why does the suspect have to die do be considered a successful use in self defense? Even in police and security work, the presence of a gun defuses 99.9% of all situations.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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14-06-2017, 12:34 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 12:33 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 12:21 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk...eople-die/

Bullshit.

Why does the suspect have to die do be considered a successful use in self defense? Even in police and security work, the presence of a gun defuses 99.9% of all situations.

And the dead people don't count?
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14-06-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 12:34 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 12:33 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Bullshit.

Why does the suspect have to die do be considered a successful use in self defense? Even in police and security work, the presence of a gun defuses 99.9% of all situations.

And the dead people don't count?

Majority of gun deaths are suicides or gang/drug violence. Suicidal people will find a way no matter what (look at Japan). Do I care if gangsters/druggies kill themselves? Not really. They don't care about themselves. That leaves the small number of gun accidents (mostly preventable) and domestic violence related gun deaths (sad, true, but actually a small % overall).

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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14-06-2017, 12:52 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 12:48 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 12:34 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  And the dead people don't count?

Majority of gun deaths are suicides or gang/drug violence. Suicidal people will find a way no matter what (look at Japan). Do I care if gangsters/druggies kill themselves? Not really. They don't care about themselves. That leaves the small number of gun accidents (mostly preventable) and domestic violence related gun deaths (sad, true, but actually a small % overall).
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14-06-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
This is comedy gold: LDH is being told that he is being played by his fear, and LDH replies by how scared he is. Laugh out load

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14-06-2017, 12:55 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 12:53 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  This is comedy gold: LDH is being told that he is being played by his fear, and LDH replies by how scared he is. Laugh out load

And he's glad that one time out of 108 his toy does what it's supposed to do.
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14-06-2017, 01:53 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 11:28 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 09:34 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  @ Grasshopper

Somewhere around the time of the post I quoted above you likened an individual right interpretation of the 2nd amendment to a conservation position. An individual right interpretation of the 2nd amendment is not a conservative position. It is a liberal one. A liberal interpretation of the US Constitution gives it broad meaning. Most liberals are perfectly fine with broad meaning to everything in the US Constitution except the 2nd Amendment. For some reason most liberals seem to think that one needs a very narrow (conservative) meaning.

Several recent liberal constitutional scholars support an individual right interpretation of the second amendment including Laurence H. Tribe, Akhil Reed Amar and Sanford Levinson. The Constitutional Accountability Center filed an amicus brief in McDonald v. Chicago in support of an individual right. They are a respected liberal think tank and law firm "dedicated to fulfilling the progressive promise of our Constitution's text and history."

Professor Tribe has always supported comprehensive gun control, but in the third addition of his legal treatise American Constitutional Law he endorses the individual-right interpretation of the Second Amendment. When he published that work he stated, “My conclusion came as something of a surprise to me, and an unwelcome surprise.”

Liberal and conservative are somewhat ambiguous terms these days, but it seems to me that American conservatives (Republicans) tend to be in favor of a literal reading of the Constitution, with any "interpretation" geared toward discerning what the founders intended (rather than how to apply the Constitution in the modern world). American conservatives (Republicans) also tend to me more gung-ho about gun rights than American liberals (Democrats). That's all I really meant by the comment you refer to.

Aside from that, I think it's absolutely an individual right, and if I have ever implied otherwise, I need to work on my writing skills. I just think that, as stated in the 2nd amendment, that individual right is tied to the need for a militia. You can see the dependence going in either direction. You can't form an effective militia at all unless the people are armed, so in that sense, the militia depends on the right to bear arms. On the other hand, as I read the amendment, the reason for not infringing the right is the need for a militia, so in that sense, the right depends, not directly on the militia, but on the need for a militia.

I suspect there is a lot that is unspoken/implicit in this amendment, and it's probably impossible to know what all of that is without doing a lot of research (or actually living in that time, which obviously none of us have done). It sounds like you have done the research, so I will defer to you. I think it's very hard to discern the full intent of the founders just from what the amendment says.

Like today the founding fathers were split on how to interpret our Constitution. A good example of that is Jefferson (considered a liberal at the time) and Hamilton (considered a conservative at the time.) Jefferson was at least at first suspicious of a strong central government. He wanted a narrow interpretation of the Constitution as a check on the powers of the federal government. Hamilton was a Federalist. He wanted a broad interpretation of the Constitution in order to give the federal government the power to do whatever needed to be done. Today Jefferson would be the conservative and Hamilton would be the liberal.

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14-06-2017, 03:21 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 12:15 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 11:34 AM)Reducetarian Wrote:  Guess what Snowflake, we all live on the same planet, and most of the modern functional democracies do a pretty good job of protecting most of their people. And their citizens have learned to trust their institutions, but hold their politicians accountable. And these people find ways of resolving conflicts without resorting to "second amendment solutions". And most of us manage to deal with this "fucked up place" well enough, so no, that's not "all we have".


I take it back. You're not a snowflake
You're a wuss, a scaredy-cat, a chicken.
"Home of the brave?" Ha!!
More like home of the fucking terrified!
"Nothing to fear but fear itself?" Well, you're way past that point now.

Mind you, I don't blame you entirely for your paranoid/terrified state: your politicians and Faux news channels have done a brilliant job of manipulating you into a "stranger=danger" mindset, with everyone slightly different as the stranger, so that you can blame minorities and the poor for rising inequality, instead of the banksters and the 1%.

Only YOUR world (the USA) seems hell-bent on violence, because that's how it's being portrayed to you, FOR A VERY SPECIFIC REASON.

The idea is that if you keep 'em scared and confused (and divided!), they won't dare get ANGRY!

You. are. being. played.

Brought this over from another thread to keep it from devolving into another gun debate.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think it's cowardly to want to protect oneself or family with a firearm. If the terrorists or nut jobs or criminal have one, or even if they only have a knife, I don't want to be stuck throwing chairs and cups (like in Britain last week). I'm 6'2" and spent enough time in hand to hand combat training in the military and police fields to defend myself against an unarmed attacker if needed.

There were 67,000 female rape victims in 2012 in the U.S. (reported). Any wonder why my wife carries a gun?

2015 in Paris, terrorists managed to kill 130 people despite strict gun control and they had no way to protect themselves. In Britain the fuckers just used 12 inch knives and they had no way to protect themselves.

Snowflake? Hardly. If the time comes for me to use my gun, I won't be the one pissing myself begging for mercy. I have the training and the will to handle the situation. I will fight back. I refuse to be a victim. That's not cowardly, that is bravery. And there are millions just like me. We're known as republicans. Nice to meet you.

(In case you didn't see it, here is my reply posted on the other thread)

Except that this isn't about guns, per se.
It's about inducing fear and manipulating law-abiding citizens.
Gun sales (and most of the resulting gun violence) are an expression of that fear.

And if somehow you managed to eliminate the guns, you'd still be stuck with the fear, and the violence it generates.
Ask the Hutus and the Tutsis about that.
End of previous reply

So people who don't carry a gun are cowardly now?

I'm not saying that no one should be afraid: I'm saying that unless you are being actively stalked, your fears are probably unfounded.
You are much more likely to be involved in a house fire than a house invasion.
But I don't see you going to bed with a fire extinguisher next to your pillow.
Why is that, do you think?

How much bravery does it take to carry and use a gun?
None, on a shooting range.
It only takes courage to carry and use a weapon when you fear someone will shoot back, such as the enemy on a battlefield.
My point is that this fear has been purposely induced in your society.

In your case, the truly brave thing to do would be to rationally examine this fear and then reject it as generally unfounded, trust your neighbours and go about your business, unarmed.

Your faith is not evidence, your opinion is not fact, and your bias is not wisdom
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14-06-2017, 03:24 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
We have a problem with people who "courageously" use guns. Most of the evidence is hearsay, often unsupported and woefully lacking in independent witnesses.
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14-06-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 12:53 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  This is comedy gold: LDH is being told that he is being played by his fear, and LDH replies by how scared he is. Laugh out load

A guy with a gun is fearful???

Thats a bit less than logical...

Logic dictates that the unarmed will be pissing themselves in a hostile situation...

Some are so delusional as to think they can " handle themselves," unarmed, when confronted by an attacker........

Unless that means grabbing themselves trying to pinch off the stream of urine....

I suppose you could say that's "handling yourself"....


Hardly seems an appropriate response to me.....

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