What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
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14-06-2017, 05:33 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 05:23 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I've pointed this out before, but I've yet to see a mass shooting/active shooter/terrorist attack anywhere people are known to be armed. I dislike the argument that those things happen in gun free zones, because that's not entirely accurate. But in places where people are KNOWN to be carrying or the type of person that frequents a certain location most likely will be carrying, the threat of mass shooting/active shooter/terrorist attack is effectively zero (NRA Convention, Bass Pro Shops, Cabela's, gun shows, etc).
If you don't look hard enough...

But I don't suppose cops count, right?
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14-06-2017, 05:42 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 05:24 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 04:53 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Walmart has lots of cereals. I have never seen anyone having their breakfast in the cereals aisle or right after checking it out. It could just be that people prefer to use their cereals, among other things including guns, somewhere else.

You seem to be hung up on the idea of what someone buys at a place, they will not use at that place, but use it elsewhere. Thus, if a person goes to a gun show and buys a firearm, they will be using it elsewhere. There's another scenario to consider. That a person has no intention of buying anything at a gun show, and merely shows up already armed and ready to shoot. But again, that probably won't happen, seeing that there are plenty of armed people at gun shows.

Let's move away from that scenario and move to another venue - an NRA convention. You don't see mass shootings there, either.

In a general sense, yes, I am a bit hung up on that. Other than real estate, movies etc, that is typically the rule. You get your stuff and take it to use somewhere else.

Granted, if I want to shoot up a random place, I will first and foremost need access to a gun. Then I will choose a soft target. I get that part of the argument. There might a fear factor among other explanations. I find the extrapolation to other areas absurd - when that nut shot up Dallas, I don't recall any armed civilians drawing their guns to shoot back, and I think that was the right thing to NOT do.

To be fair, I am just going by a hunch, with nothing that I can cite other than common experience. So I could be wrong.

With regard to your last point on NRA conventions. In general, mass shootings are thankfully a rare thing, not only at NRA conventions. Most conventions or gatherings are rather uneventful in that sense.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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14-06-2017, 07:43 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 05:23 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I've pointed this out before, but I've yet to see a mass shooting/active shooter/terrorist attack anywhere people are known to be armed. I dislike the argument that those things happen in gun free zones, because that's not entirely accurate. But in places where people are KNOWN to be carrying or the type of person that frequents a certain location most likely will be carrying, the threat of mass shooting/active shooter/terrorist attack is effectively zero (NRA Convention, Bass Pro Shops, Cabela's, gun shows, etc).

Your examples (NRA conventions, gun shows etc) scale rather poorly. By your logic, Americans, less gun-free, more heavily armed, than most(maybe all) other western nations, should experience relatively fewer mass-shootings. They do not.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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14-06-2017, 07:44 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
It's a stupid argument. Criminals don't go to gun shows because they don't get their guns legally. The gun violence that happens in connection to gun shows is when the person that purchases a gun there then proceeds to leave the gun under the car seat, you know, so that they're safer and all, and their four year old pulls it out and shoots them in the back while driving because he doesn't know any better.

The fact remains that, legal or not, you are more likely to get shot simply because you have guns, rather than because of an attack. Studies have shown this time and time again.

If I'm going to use common sense in my interpretation of what is safer regarding guns, then not having one around readily available to use at a moment's notice is the smarter choice for me. Period.

You are free to have your own opinion, and I respect that, but you don't get to make up reality just because you like guns. I don't give a fuck if you like guns. That's fine, just please be smart and safe with them and quit telling me I'm an idiot for not wanting to have one on my person at all times.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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14-06-2017, 07:49 PM
What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 07:43 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Your examples (NRA conventions, gun shows etc) scale rather poorly. By your logic, Americans, less gun-free, more heavily armed, than most(maybe all) other western nations, should experience relatively fewer mass-shootings. They do not.

You are assuming (intentionally) that gun density is homogeneous throughout the republic. It's not and that's why the examples were given. Do try to keep up.
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14-06-2017, 07:52 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 07:44 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  It's a stupid argument. Criminals don't go to gun shows because they don't get their guns legally. The gun violence that happens in connection to gun shows is when the person that purchases a gun there then proceeds to leave the gun under the car seat, you know, so that they're safer and all, and their four year old pulls it out and shoots them in the back while driving because he doesn't know any better.

The fact remains that, legal or not, you are more likely to get shot simply because you have guns, rather than because of an attack. Studies have shown this time and time again.

If I'm going to use common sense in my interpretation of what is safer regarding guns, then not having one around readily available to use at a moment's notice is the smarter choice for me. Period.

You are free to have your own opinion, and I respect that, but you don't get to make up reality just because you like guns. I don't give a fuck if you like guns. That's fine, just please be smart and safe with them and quit telling me I'm an idiot for not wanting to have one on my person at all times.

Not quite.

Many mass shootings are committed with guns legally purchased by the shooter.


No amount of imposition of draconian rules will stop bad behavior from bad people.


You only can make things expensive and inconvenient for law abiding people, who aren't the problem.

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14-06-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 07:52 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Not quite.

Many mass shootings are committed with guns legally purchased by the shooter.


No amount of imposition of draconian rules will stop bad behavior from bad people.


You only can make things expensive and inconvenient for law abiding people, who aren't the problem.

I was speaking more to everyday gun violence, but sure.

Then again, see Australia...

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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14-06-2017, 08:07 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 07:58 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 07:52 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Not quite.

Many mass shootings are committed with guns legally purchased by the shooter.


No amount of imposition of draconian rules will stop bad behavior from bad people.


You only can make things expensive and inconvenient for law abiding people, who aren't the problem.

I was speaking more to everyday gun violence, but sure.

Then again, see Australia...


Don't bother using facts, the Pro-gun people on this forum might as well be creationists as far as this issue goes. No facts you give them will alter their position.

As for the stupid statement that Mass shootings never happen where large numbers of guns are at ignore the military bases and the Dallas march (where tons of people were marching with open carry long riffles) neither of which made any difference. But then again I am using facts against lunatics.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-06-2017, 08:28 PM
What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
Military bases are for the most part, gun free zones.
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14-06-2017, 09:12 PM
RE: What Is Your Opinion Of Gunowners?
(14-06-2017 08:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 07:58 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I was speaking more to everyday gun violence, but sure.

Then again, see Australia...


Don't bother using facts, the Pro-gun people on this forum might as well be creationists as far as this issue goes. No facts you give them will alter their position.

As for the stupid statement that Mass shootings never happen where large numbers of guns are at ignore the military bases and the Dallas march (where tons of people were marching with open carry long riffles) neither of which made any difference. But then again I am using facts against lunatics.

10 years military here. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the only people with guns at any one time on a military base are the gate guards, a few vehicle patrols, and the people actively at a shooting range. They are gun free zones.

The Dallas shooter used cover, a tactic not common to mass shooters. He also specifically targeted police officers. He was also trained in firearms, probably more well trained than the officers he was targeting. It is nearly impossible to defend yourself against a hidden shooter.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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