What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
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13-12-2016, 08:51 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:45 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Says the personal who desperately wants to make a distinction between gender dysphoria and extreme gender dysphoria so they don't have to concede that being transgender means you're mentally ill.
Well, a transgender person who transitions generally no longer suffers from gender dysphoria but they will still be transgender. Their genitalia may match up with the gender of their brain after sexual reassignment surgery, but their chromosomes will remain that of the sex they were born with. That is why I don't think you should conflate transgenderism with mental illness.

@RocketSurgeon I'll give the video a watch and respond to your post later today. I have to go to work soon and I don't want to give you a rushed, half-assed response.

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13-12-2016, 08:52 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:45 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Gender dysphoria is required to be transgender

No it's not. All that's necessary is a recognition that one's body parts don't match who one is. Dysphoria is not needed.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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13-12-2016, 09:14 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:45 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Gender dysphoria is required to be transgender. Try to define transgender without dysphoria. You can't. It's necessary.

Dishonest? lol okay.

Says the personal who desperately wants to make a distinction between gender dysphoria and extreme gender dysphoria so they don't have to concede that being transgender means you're mentally ill.

According to the same DSM that you keep using to justify your lack of desire to understand the nuance of this issue, not to mention the experiences of the actual people who *actually* experience this shit, there is a distinct difference. Some trans people don't have the desire to go through surgery. The cost of fear or hassle may just outweigh the amount of discomfort they feel with their body.

Other people have dysphoria that can be addressed without surgery. I've known trans men who have huge dysphoria with their breasts but not with their genitalia. I know one man who was perfectly content in his body as soon as his T therapy progressed to the point where he started getting more muscular and growing facial hair. He later had top surgery but quit experiencing his massive depression and anxiety about his body before that. I know another trans man who has no intention of ever having any surgery. He presents as male but is bisexual and quite enjoys the function of his sex organs the way they are, so he just binds his chest and uses whatever aids he feels like using to accommodate his parts. My trans female friend couple are wildly different in how they approach their gender. One is a tomboy and presents as female but not a super feminine one and isn't in a hurry to have bottom surgery but does want top surgery. Her girlfriend has such dysphoria that although she's in a relationship with a trans woman who totally understands her body and loves her the way she is, can't be intimate with her because she just hates her parts because they're all wrong. She is scheduled to have bottom surgery next year and is insanely excited about it.

There is a lot of nuance to this conversation. These differentiations matter.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it- not even if I have said it- unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha
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13-12-2016, 09:28 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 07:21 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 11:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/natio...story.html

And this from the American Psychological Association

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

My daughter, since transitioning and being on hormone, does not suffer from gender dysphoria now. She is happy and at ease with herself. Dysphoria means "distress", that's all it means. Having dysphoria is a side effect of being transgender, it is not the cause of it and not all transgender people suffer from it.
I didn't say that transgenderism is a mental illness; it's the accompanying gender dysphoria that is. If you have an issue with that, I suggest you write to the people who classified it as such.

(12-12-2016 11:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  And one last thing, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

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If I didn't defend my daughter I'd be a piss poor mother. I hope you mother always defends you.

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
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Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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13-12-2016, 09:36 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:45 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Gender dysphoria is required to be transgender.

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13-12-2016, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 09:41 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 08:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Gender dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder by the ICS and DSM. Consider

DSM-5 has introduced the term "Gender Incongruence" (DSM-5 302.85/302.6) to replace "Gender Dysphoria" as being more descriptive. Further the APA states ""gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition." So there's that.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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13-12-2016, 09:41 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 09:45 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:45 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  desperately wants to make a distinction between gender dysphoria and extreme gender dysphoria so they don't have to concede that being transgender means you're mentally ill.

Look, jackass, there is no such thing as "extreme" (italicized or otherwise) gender dysphoria.

"Extreme" problems with their body image is a diagnostic characteristic designed by the professionals you attempted to quote.

It is a requisite for a diagnosis of dysphoria.

This. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. Being. Trans*.

Wanting to transition and being unhappy with your body is not dysphoria. Having serious life-issues as a result of the unhappiness is. That's why I cited the part of the DSM that mentions "extreme".

It was certainly not because I "desperately want" anything. You're the one trying to link dysphoria with anyone who is a pre-op trans* person. So I repeat:

Citation Needed.

(Edit to Add: While I was typing this, Girly repeated what I've already pointed out in previous posts, but he did it in a better way. Thanks Girly. I don't think he's listening, though.)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-12-2016, 09:43 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 07:44 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  If one experiences gender dysphoria with their assigned sex, they are mentally ill by definition.

Whose definition? Yours? It's certainly not the APA's.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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13-12-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
I also think it's important to define mental disorder in order to define something as a mental disorder. The DSM itself, in defining mental disorders, says that the concept "lacks a consistent operational definition that covers all situations." They offer that caveat before defining a mental disorder as a "clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress or disability or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event, for example, the death of a loved one. Whatever its original cause, it must currently be considered a manifestation of a behavioral, psychological, or biological dysfunction in the individual. Neither deviant behavior nor conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict is a symptom of a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."

And transgenderism doesn't necessarily fit this definition, while gender dysphoria does, but not in all circumstances. It has to be shown that it is distressing to that individual, and as we've discussed, this isn't always the case.

The biggest distinction to me is that any other mental disorder would be treated with pills and therapy to alter your mental or emotional status, even when that status has a physical cause, such as defective receptors in the brains of depressed people. Gender dysphoria has no such treatment. There is no amount of therapy or pills that will fix this feeling. For someone experiencing this, the only solution is a lengthy and pricy overhaul of the physical causes. The problem is with the body, not the brain. The brain just experiences symptoms of what it perceives as a conflict.

At the same time, gender dysphoria can be treated in this way, whereas someone who is transgender will always be transgender, whether or not they treat their gender dysphoria.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it- not even if I have said it- unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha
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13-12-2016, 09:51 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 09:41 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  (Edit to Add: Girly repeated what I've already pointed out in previous posts, but he did it in a better way. Thanks Girly. I don't think he's listening, though.)

It cracks me up when people with absolutely no training or experience pretend to be authorities on a subject. It's a mental disease with DSM-5 code 301.81.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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