What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
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13-12-2016, 09:52 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 10:07 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
double post

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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13-12-2016, 09:52 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 10:08 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
yay my first triple post

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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13-12-2016, 09:52 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 09:38 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  DSM-5 has introduced the term "Gender Incongruence" (DSM-5 302.85/302.6) to replace "Gender Dysphoria" as being more descriptive. Further the APA states ""gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition." So there's that.
Oh look, so the "experts" did make a mistake. Who'd of thunk it!

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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13-12-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(11-12-2016 11:14 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(11-12-2016 10:29 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Ithink this whole thing is a result of social change due to left leaning liberal fucks who have forced political correctness down everyone's throats

I've never been in an actual situation where political correctness was "forced down my throat", but that's just me.

Me neither. I have not been in a situation where I have been compelled against my will to not be an asshole.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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13-12-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:45 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 08:40 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Well that's fine, Gilly. If you're going to ignore his points simply because you don't like him, I'm going to ignore you as a dishonest douchebag.

I was mainly posting it for Vosur, who is at least an intellectually honest person, even though I disagree on many points.

Gender dysphoria is required to be transgender. Try to define transgender without dysphoria. You can't. It's necessary.

Dishonest? lol okay.

Says the personal who desperately wants to make a distinction between gender dysphoria and extreme gender dysphoria so they don't have to concede that being transgender means you're mentally ill.

You apparently didn't read my post so I'll repost it.

from the American Psychological Association

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.


It's almost, almost comparable to saying that every soldier who experiences extreme wartime violence will always have PTSD. It doesn't happen to every soldier though.

For many transgender people the trauma of being rejected by their family, friends, community and the greater society is a major part of their dysphoria. As I said earlier, it's a sort of side effect of being transgender, it's not the cause of being transgender.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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13-12-2016, 10:12 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
What parts you have, clothes/accessories you like to wear, parts you prefer to play with, or anything else related to gender, sex, or sexual orientation is irrelevant to me. Just don't assume I know how to address you or what you might consider an insult. I might be a little ignorant, so you may need to give me the benefit of the doubt sometimes. I'll certainly do the same for you.

Ultimately, as long as you aren't an asshole to me or my friends and family, I like you. And even if you are an asshole, as long as it is an endearing type of assholery, I might give you a pass.

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
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13-12-2016, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 11:26 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 07:08 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 09:17 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Yes, and at one time phlogiston theory was reputed to explain the propagation of light. What's your point?
My point is that it's irrational to get mad about people basing their views about what is and isn't a mental illness on the views of the experts in the field. It might be classified differently in the future, but for now, it is what it is. The problem, in my opinion, isn't that people use the correct terminology to talk about gender dysphoria, it's that there is a significant societal stigma around all mental illnesses which leads people to, like GenesisNemesis said in his response, demonize those who suffer from them. It is no different from depression or schizophrenia in that the patients need therapy and other forms of treatment rather than ostracization.

Well, the thing is, those who are bigots regarding the trans- community can, and often do, use this entry to justify their ugliness. As mentioned above, homosexuality was once considered a mental disorder -- and said DSM (III, I think it was?) entry was also used in the same manner -- to stigmatize and demean people for a quality that is perfectly natural.

The APA, which compiles the DSM, can be and has been wrong.

I agree that stigmatizing the mentally ill is a failing my society suffers.
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13-12-2016, 11:37 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 03:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Are these labels entirely necessary?
So what if a guy wears a dress, d we have to call him a transvestite?
So what if a guy tells you he feels like a gal, do we have to call him transgender?

This guy should be able to place his mark in the African American check-box when putting in applications for college, if that's how he wishes to be categorized, right?

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Iz a joke, dayum! Tongue

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13-12-2016, 12:20 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:38 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Not at all. Wanting to transition is not dysphoria. Not wanting to transition does not mean the person is not transgendered.
It's true that there are exceptions, but I think it's fair to say that most trans people want to transition to the sex they identify with (hormone treatment being much more common than sexual reassignment surgery) and that those who do transition do it in order to minimize or eliminate their gender dysphoria entirely. That has been my experience talking to trans people anyway.

(13-12-2016 08:38 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Have you not been reading what I posted from the DSM about what it takes to constitute dysphoria?

It's defined by extreme problems related to loathing of one's birth parts, identity, etc., and difficulty functioning normally in society (such as work) as a result. It's not simply "I am in the wrong body", which is just a generic definition of transgender.

And as Ohio Sky pointed out, the DSM's dysphoria designation is often necessary to get insurance companies to pay for the doctors to provide the treatment (same is true for trans* prisoners, by the way) they need.
Right, not every trans person experiences gender dysphoria but every person who experiences gender dysphoria is trans... or something. Big Grin

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13-12-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:16 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I find John Oliver to be very helpful on breaking down some of the issues:



Having watched the whole thing now, I can relate to Gilgamesh's annoyance with John Oliver's style of presentation, but I'll be focusing on the content in my response. The big takeaway from that video, for me, is that people have a hard time empathizing with trans people (the flabbergasted weatherman and the condescending DMV employees being good examples) because they don't understand the nature of their state of mind (Mike Huckabee's implication that transgenderism is a choice being another good example). The high suicide rates among trans people are no doubt related to the common abuse they experience as a result of this lack of empathy.

I have to confess that I have a very hard time understanding transgenderism on a deeper level than the dictionary definition as well, though I still accept them for who they are (my SO, for instance, is transgender). I've spoken to a number of trans people over the years but none of them have been able to put into words what exactly they mean when they say things like "I feel like a woman" and how it differentiates from what being a man feels like. Stevil has raised this question several times throughout this thread and unless I missed something, nobody was able to explain it to him either. This, I feel, is one of the big obstacles that need to be overcome before widespread acceptance of transgender people can be achieved.

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