What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
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13-12-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 11:37 AM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 03:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Are these labels entirely necessary?
So what if a guy wears a dress, d we have to call him a transvestite?
So what if a guy tells you he feels like a gal, do we have to call him transgender?

This guy should be able to place his mark in the African American check-box when putting in applications for college, if that's how he wishes to be categorized, right?

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Iz a joke, dayum! Tongue

If we are telling jokes

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13-12-2016, 01:37 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 01:40 PM by claywise.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
Merely raising the following topic has resulted in near-decapitation by trans people or activists in the past, but I'll try again....

I grasp in principle the idea of feeling gender dysphoric, i.e. one's "interior" sense of gender is at odds with external physical manifestations of gender. I have even read about brain development in utero, and how that might influence one's gender sense.

But if a person can feel, in their deepest self, that they are "not" the gender reflected by genetics and morphology, why not also in relation to other factors, such as race?

The classic recent example is Rachel Dolezal, the civil-rights activist who portrayed herself as African-American and even led a local chapter of the NAACP, but was later outed as genetically Caucasian by her parents. Dolezal said "I definitely consider myself to be black," i.e. her interior sense of self (presumably) did not reflect the objective genetic reality of her race.

Dolezal came under fire from just about everyone. Many African-Americans were incensed that she apparently obtained scholarships and other advantages by virtue of her "race," and also that she hadn't actually lived a black experience throughout life. She was, they charged, just a poser. Many non-black people were disgusted with her as well, more for the former reason than the latter.

So, as I put on my helmet and body armor, I am still looking for a cogent, consistent explanation for why we should accept gender dysphoria, but it's so outrageous that someone would claim to experience "racial" dysphoria.

BTW, I'm with many posters here: Whatever a person would like to be called, or referred to, is what I will call them or refer to them as. That said, there is a point at which one starts to feel like one is being, shall we say, played.

Years ago in a "men's group" (a nice, new agey one; not MRA stuff), a guy named Jim proudly announced he wanted to be called McKenzie, in honor of his Scottish heritage. All the men clapped and complied. When he came in a few months later and proclaimed that his new identity was as "Jompa" (no idea how to spell that), in a nod to his new interest in Tibetan Buddhism, the applause was, shall we say, more muted. Not comparable, I realize, to gender identity, but related to illustrate how those being asked to change their perceptions can become ... jaded.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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13-12-2016, 02:33 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
I'm sorry, Vosur and Stevil... I thought I was defining it in a precise fashion, by reference to the science and psychology of the issue (I'm still a bit hesitant to call psychology a "science", but that's another conversation).

The answer to the other question is really very simple: because there is no component of the brain that determines "feeling like" a race. There's no significant difference between brains of various races; one cannot have an "African-American brain". There cannot be such a thing as racial dysphoria. Likewise, one cannot have the brain of a shark or an attack helicopter.

People have pointed out repeatedly in this thread that the brain's formation, especially with regard to sexuality and the expression thereof, is determined by more than one's chromosomes, including factors like maternal hormone levels and other epigenetic factors.

We have learned that there is a difference between the brains of the binary sexes, as pointed out and experiments (including MRIs) have shown that the people who claim to experience gender incongruence will show brain formations that resemble those of the other sex... the one they are claiming to be. That would not be the case if it was "just feelings".

By reducing this physical element down to "they feel like an attack helicopter", we are not only ignoring the science but also the very real struggles of the trans people who must live with incongruence even in the face of serious social pressure, prejudice, and danger. Another difference between trans people and Rachel Dolezal is that she can "put it down" and stop pretending to be black at any point, whereas trans people simply do not have that option...

...and when they try, they get Gender Dysphoria, a serious psychological condition that too often results in suicide.

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13-12-2016, 02:40 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 01:37 PM)claywise Wrote:  So, as I put on my helmet and body armor, I am still looking for a cogent, consistent explanation for why we should accept gender dysphoria, but it's so outrageous that someone would claim to experience "racial" dysphoria.
Maybe it's not outrageous. Maybe it's just someone's opinion or the opinion of many people who, similarly to gender, just don't understand.

However, I think it may be somewhat different because the physical characteristics of race are not as overtly felt as the physical characteristics of sex. For race, those are more seen than felt. What is felt is where one fits into society and culture due to one's race. So that aspect is like gender where it's largely what's perceived by the individual due to internal and external influences. But I think the actual physical other side of the comparison is much greater for gender than it is for race. Just my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right.

(13-12-2016 01:37 PM)claywise Wrote:  BTW, I'm with many posters here: Whatever a person would like to be called, or referred to, is what I will call them or refer to them as. That said, there is a point at which one starts to feel like one is being, shall we say, played.
Played? Why do you think that? What would be the point of playing someone regarding gender?

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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13-12-2016, 02:54 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 02:33 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The answer to the other question is really very simple: because there is no component of the brain that determines "feeling like" a race. There's no significant difference between brains of various races; one cannot have an "African-American brain". There cannot be such a thing as racial dysphoria. Likewise, one cannot have the brain of a shark or an attack helicopter.

Well no. You see there is more to being male and female than the brain. That is there point. Just because you are a male with a brain more typical for females, doesn't make you a female. It makes you a male with an abnormality(and before I go on normal =/=good and abnormal =/= bad). I don't use gender, it isn't a word for science and is only used when somebodies politics are involved but I am trying to show you what people mean when they compare them. In reality you are born a man or a woman, and nothing can change that, even if you are intersex. That is why race is brought up. I sound like a white person, I listen to metal, I don't like fried chicken or grape soda but even if I deviate from the culture of negro americans I will never be a white person.

In short, you can't change what you were born as.

(13-12-2016 02:33 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  By reducing this physical element down to "they feel like an attack helicopter",

I hope you know that joke is supposed to make fun of things like this

[Image: tumblr_inline_nly0q4Luy81t20yr2_500.png]

Most people aren't after your average trans person, just the ones who push this type of crap on tumblr.

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13-12-2016, 03:08 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 03:11 PM by Vosur.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 02:33 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm sorry, Vosur and Stevil... I thought I was defining it in a precise fashion, by reference to the science and psychology of the issue (I'm still a bit hesitant to call psychology a "science", but that's another conversation).
The knowledge that the brains of transgender people are more similar to the brains of the sex that they identify with than they are to the brains of the sex that they were born with unfortunately does very little to help us understand how these differences manifest themselves in the experience of transgender people. It doesn't help to explain what they're referring to/what they mean when they say that they "feel like a man" or that they "feel like a woman" and what the concrete differences between the two are.

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13-12-2016, 03:20 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 08:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 08:26 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I get steaming mad when idiots say that transgender people are mentally ill. I get so mad that I can't hardly type on my keyboard. I've linked them to the same scientific evidence I've posted in this thread. It doesn't matter. They've made up their minds that transgender people are mentally ill and that's it. Bunch of assholes.
Why do facts make you mad? Gender dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder by the ICS and DSM. Consider

Gender dysphoria is not the same as being Transgender.
Gender dysphoria is a feeling that I have when I see myself naked in the mirror or when I get my period although I am a guy in my brain. Such things. Not every Transgender person is also gender dysphoric. Many are but by far not all.

Also just because something has a label, doesn't mean it is actually a mental illness. In theory everybody has some kind of "mental disorder" because something that is part of your personality was, at some time, labelled as a disorder.
In reality, as dancefortwo pointed out, you can't really say a transgender person is mentally ill. Some may be but not all are.
The depressed mindset (if that is what is meant with the disorder) that many transgender people have, is a symptom of a problem that is deeper than "but i am a man/woman" and it is not only tied to the person itself but it is also tied to society, politics, and the medical community.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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13-12-2016, 03:22 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 03:08 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 02:33 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm sorry, Vosur and Stevil... I thought I was defining it in a precise fashion, by reference to the science and psychology of the issue (I'm still a bit hesitant to call psychology a "science", but that's another conversation).
The knowledge that the brains of transgender people are more similar to the brains of the sex that they identify with than they are to the brains of the sex that they were born with unfortunately does very little to help us understand how these differences manifest themselves in the experience of transgender people. It doesn't help to explain what they're referring to/what they mean when they say that they "feel like a man" or that they "feel like a woman" and what the concrete differences between the two are.

Agreed. And I think it means that much more study is warranted. But there's something there. We know that "feelings" are actually the result of brain chemistry and neurological patterns (again, fMRI scans... we've even shown it in dogs!), and we know that the brains seem to match the trans* community's testimony. Without some science definitively showing that their claims are incorrect, I suggest we believe the trans people and the science that seems at the moment to show that there's a physical basis for their claims.

And I disdain SJW types as much as anyone. Please don't let their excesses in their zeal to "help" push you away from empathy for the plight of those whose brains lie to them about their chromosomes. I don't mean you in particular, Vosur, just throwing it out there.

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13-12-2016, 03:26 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 03:08 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 02:33 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm sorry, Vosur and Stevil... I thought I was defining it in a precise fashion, by reference to the science and psychology of the issue (I'm still a bit hesitant to call psychology a "science", but that's another conversation).
The knowledge that the brains of transgender people are more similar to the brains of the sex that they identify with than they are to the brains of the sex that they were born with unfortunately does very little to help us understand how these differences manifest themselves in the experience of transgender people. It doesn't help to explain what they're referring to/what they mean when they say that they "feel like a man" or that they "feel like a woman" and what the concrete differences between the two are.
Vosur, I understand your point, but I also think you're looking for the impossible. As a guy, I feel like a man. I have no clue what it means to feel like a woman because I have never experienced that and never will. So, if I were to attempt to tell you exactly what I mean by I feel like a man, I doubt it would make much sense to you because I have nothing to contrast with. Mostly, I just know that's what it is because I'm a man and perfectly comfortable being a man. I would imagine that when biological factors make a man feel like a woman, those people similarly just know, but would have enormous difficulty explaining it to anyone else.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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13-12-2016, 03:39 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
ITT: people who are not trans assume they know what being trans is, or what it's like.

hold up im eating an entire bag of popcorn every time someone cracks one of those "duhhhh triggered!!!" jokes like they're constructive or anything.
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