What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
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11-12-2016, 04:08 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(11-12-2016 03:54 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(11-12-2016 03:52 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Such a weeb.

Is it strange I want to move to Japan, yet I don't like anime?

Yes, because anime is the only thing Japan is known for. Ever. Ever ever. Nothing else. Infact it's not even called Japan anymore. It's called anime.

[Image: 20cad83ad8d757191e2878b0f4bf05a9.png]
"Don't answer that. A rhetorical question."
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11-12-2016, 04:33 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
That rocket scientist's lit review is excellent. Male gender identity in complete androgen insensitivity syndrome.
was particularly fascinating. Thanks!

#sigh
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11-12-2016, 04:35 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(11-12-2016 03:54 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(11-12-2016 03:52 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Such a weeb.

Is it strange I want to move to Japan, yet I don't like anime?

Saying you don't like anime is like saying you don't like live-action shows. Anime isn't a genre; it's a medium. You probably like - or would like - some.
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11-12-2016, 04:43 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(10-12-2016 11:30 PM)ViolexTV Wrote:  "Gender" is an expression of how a person perceives themselves & how we perceive others in terms of masculinity/femininity/androgyny. "Sex" is how we characterize people based on physical characteristics like anatomy, hormone levels, chromosomes. Most people fit into categories of "male" and "female" as we define them. Lots of people, however, do not. And I feel they have just as much of a right to define how they identify gender-wise as anyone else.
I see "sex"as being intercourse.
"gender"as being XY chromosome or XX chromosome.
Sexual orientation as being what gender you are and what gender you are attracted to.

As far as behaviour, I don't think there is much value in labelling certain behaviours or fashion sense or activities as being male or female activities. People can do what pleases them.
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11-12-2016, 05:56 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(11-12-2016 03:16 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(11-12-2016 02:50 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Nature throws all kinds of variety. There are women born without a vigina. That's right. They have no vigina. It's called Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/12/02/this-woman...y-6297852/

There are men born with ovaries however they have a penis. Women are born with undescended testes. There are babies born with ambiguous genitals and it's not all that uncommon. It's called intersex.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condi...n-20026345

And then there is the brain. There is a difference between the amount of gray and white area of the male and female brain differs. Everything science knows about the the brain indicates that the transgender brain resembles the opposite genders brain in some key areas.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803

There are many more studies of the transgender brain.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com.au/p/transse...ntity.html

Edit: more stuff in being intersex.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/...s-a-woman/

I know about intersex, it is a poor argument. First to mention all these cases are rare, really rare, like 0.1% rare, and yet even they are only either male or female. Let us use your intersex examples shall we.


Source 1. The woma despite having no vigina can still get pregnant. She has overies xx chromosomes, a uterus and all female parts but the vigina. She is still a woman. She still falls into only male or female.

Source 2. Despite that children with ambiguous genitalia still have the normal chromosomes for men and women. That alone give us indication that these people are only either male or female.

Now on the brain thing. I know males and females have brains that differ, but an atypical brain for a male doesn't make him a woman, but a man with an atypical brain.I know about this and as i said before see nothing wrong with trans people.

Source 3. Come on the source talks about how they were able to find out she was a female. She was always a female, but the evidence is now there to show it.(like how life evolved without humans noticing till now.)

Again, i don't hate intersex or trans people, but there is only male and female, even within intersex, and intersex people make up very little of the human population.

(11-12-2016 03:16 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  but there is only male and female


There have been girls born with Y chromosomes. They usually have underdeveloped gonads but sometimes not. So what would you call this person? Male or female. Like I said, nature is not perfect and things happen which makes their sex hard to distinguish. It's not typical, of course, but it does happen.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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11-12-2016, 06:09 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
Self-definition: fine with me.

Assholes: not fine with me. (Because assholes often use definitions as weapons to shut down conversation, that's why I note it here)

So it can depend, but in general, I'm going to start any interaction by assuming the other person is not an asshole.
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11-12-2016, 07:02 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
Geez, how hard is this?

Sex = Chromosomes and the resulting body plan. (Which, as noted above, isn't 100%, either.)

Gender = Endocrine development of the brain, based on hormone levels during development (mostly during gestation) that may cause the brain to develop as if it is the brain that is normally found in the other kind of body.

We have this anecdotally from every trans* person who ever tried to explain it to the rest of the world; science increasingly is discovering that they're not just making it up.

Seriously, guys, do you not understand that by saying they're just fibbing about it (or crazy), or writing them off as perverts, you're doing what straight people did to homosexuals for generations?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-12-2016, 07:13 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(11-12-2016 07:02 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Geez, how hard is this?

Sex = Chromosomes and the resulting body plan. (Which, as noted above, isn't 100%, either.)

Gender = Endocrine development of the brain, based on hormone levels during development (mostly during gestation) that may cause the brain to develop as if it is the brain that is normally found in the other kind of body.

We have this anecdotally from every trans* person who ever tried to explain it to the rest of the world; science increasingly is discovering that they're not just making it up.

Seriously, guys, do you not understand that by saying they're just fibbing about it (or crazy), or writing them off as perverts, you're doing what straight people did to homosexuals for generations?

One argument against it is that the concept of gender, separated from strict biological physicalities, is a useless concept. That 'feeling' like a sex makes no sense; you're just you: your physical body which defines your sex, and your mind which has no sex. To say that one can be, for example, a female with a male mind, is to say that there is a type of thinking that is male. One might argue that this is a useless notion: There is no male way to think, or female way to think.
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11-12-2016, 07:50 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(11-12-2016 07:13 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  One argument against it is that the concept of gender, separated from strict biological physicalities, is a useless concept. That 'feeling' like a sex makes no sense; you're just you: your physical body which defines your sex, and your mind which has no sex. To say that one can be, for example, a female with a male mind, is to say that there is a type of thinking that is male. One might argue that this is a useless notion: There is no male way to think, or female way to think.

I think it stems from an inability of most people to grasp that what the body develops as and how the brain architecture develops are not necessarily going to coincide perfectly in all individuals. We do know that male and female brains develop differently, and that this can be measured.

We also know that trans* persons have brains that are measurably different from their biological sex, and that even pre-hormonal treatment, they show traits more closely related to their expressed gender. Why then should we be surprised that there's an outcome different from what the rest of us expect to occur, given a particular set of genitals/chromosomes, in those cases?

We thought that we'd have the human DNA 100% figured out, in the wake of the success of the Human Genome Project. Instead, we found that there's a whole other layer of how the DNA expresses (controller genes that control the sequence in which other genes are "switched" on or off at important stages during development, and again later at puberty), and another layer above that, in which epigenetics (and endocrine levels in general) cause the phenotype to diverge from what the basic zygotic genotype might seem to suggest in advance will be the outcome.

It's nothing to be frightened about. Brain development (and neurology in general) is a new and rapidly expanding field; we're learning a great deal that wasn't known even a couple of decades ago. But trying to assert "well they have a penis and therefore they have a man's brain", in defiance of both the anecdotal evidence from millions of trans* people who are often attacked and even murdered for being that way (as if they'd choose such a life!) and in opposition to what the science is telling us, is asinine.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-12-2016, 08:10 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
I have female parts but have never felt particularly "female" (or male, for that matter). I'm standing somewhere in the middle of the male-female continuum, occasionally glancing in both directions and wondering what all the fuss is about.
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