What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
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12-12-2016, 01:01 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
I don't care if you wish to be called Mrs. Mann, or Sir Lady Longlog, iz all good.
But if you have a penis you are male, and if you have a vagina you are female.

Completely independent of whichever one (or both) of those nature chose to graft between your legs, exists your thoughts, emotions, and actions.

The moment you have an entire population of men displaying supposedly "feminine" behavior, or an entire population of women displaying supposedly "masculine" behavior, then those behaviors are rendered no longer strictly gender specific, as all humans, of every gender and preference, have experienced them.

Dress, and act, and think, however you feel. Remove your current gender for the other, and back again, if you wish. And don't ever feel ashamed of any of it.
It's all perfectly human! Hug

But get a grip. Tongue Just cuz I'd prolly eat my young if they didn't remove themselves from my territory when they came of age, doesn't make me a crocodile! Tongue Horrible human, maybe. Confused But not a crocodile. Tongue

You're human, and you're awesome. Thumbsup

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12-12-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 11:59 AM)Impulse Wrote:  And I'm really tired of the "pc" crutch that too many use in an attempt to dismiss their own ignorance. Dodgy

^This. I get where the anti-PC attitude comes from but most of the time it turns out to just be "OH MY GOD IT'S NEW AND SCARY" instead of an actual argument. Or it's used as an excuse to be nasty to someone.

Embrace the chaos
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12-12-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
There has been only one time in my life that I was upset by someone's gender identity. When my second husband picked me up from work and he was wearing a skirt and makeup...yeah, loss for words at that moment.

Beyond that...I don't care one way or another about how a person identifies their gender or their sexuality. I don't so much like being blindsided by someone I am in a romantic and legal relationship with. Confused

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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12-12-2016, 01:11 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 01:07 PM)Anjele Wrote:  There has been only one time in my life that I was upset by someone's gender identity. When my second husband picked me up from work and he was wearing a skirt and makeup...yeah, loss for words at that moment.

Beyond that...I don't care one way or another about how a person identifies their gender or their sexuality. I don't so much like being blindsided by someone I am in a romantic and legal relationship with. Confused

Is there more to that story? Because what you described sounds like a transvestite, which I don't think is a gender identity at all.

I don't mean to disrespect your painful memories, Anjele, only to point out that unless he decided he had been suppressing his actual female identity, then he's just a guy who likes to wear dresses and makeup... i.e. Eddie Izzard.




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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12-12-2016, 01:37 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 01:06 PM)Unfallen_Skeptic Wrote:  Or it's used as an excuse to be nasty to someone.

Speaking of which, I feel it'd be unwise to further subclassify a species known to throw millions of it's own into blast furnaces, considering history has a nasty habit of repeating itself. Undecided

What's your gender identity?
Normal.
Oh. Move along, then.

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12-12-2016, 01:38 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 01:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 01:07 PM)Anjele Wrote:  There has been only one time in my life that I was upset by someone's gender identity. When my second husband picked me up from work and he was wearing a skirt and makeup...yeah, loss for words at that moment.

Beyond that...I don't care one way or another about how a person identifies their gender or their sexuality. I don't so much like being blindsided by someone I am in a romantic and legal relationship with. Confused

Is there more to that story? Because what you described sounds like a transvestite, which I don't think is a gender identity at all.

I don't mean to disrespect your painful memories, Anjele, only to point out that unless he decided he had been suppressing his actual female identity, then he's just a guy who likes to wear dresses and makeup... i.e. Eddie Izzard.




Eddie Izzard is a favorite of mine.

I don't know what the ex was trying to say...didn't then, don't now.

It's just not something I needed to find out, whatever he was trying to tell me, after a long night at work. Undecided

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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12-12-2016, 03:49 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 01:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Is there more to that story? Because what you described sounds like a transvestite, which I don't think is a gender identity at all.

I don't mean to disrespect your painful memories, Anjele, only to point out that unless he decided he had been suppressing his actual female identity, then he's just a guy who likes to wear dresses and makeup... i.e. Eddie Izzard.
Are these labels entirely necessary?
So what if a guy wears a dress, d we have to call him a transvestite?
So what if a guy tells you he feels like a gal, do we have to call him transgender?

For both these cases, I don't understand how wearing a dress makes a person different. Same person underneath right? Who cares what they wear?
Do we need a label for people who like to wear red or for those that like to wear singlets, or perhaps those that like to wear collared shirts?

Again, what is meant by feeling female?
I am a guy, I wouldn't say that I feel like a male, but I wouldn't have a clue what the difference is between feeling male or feeling female. I feel like me, I don't know what it is to feel like someone else, let alone like a whole collection of people who are different to me. What does it feel like to be Chinese, what does it feel like to be Indian, what does it feel like to be gay, what does it feel like to be a woman, what does it feel like to be a horse?

How the fuck would I know?
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12-12-2016, 04:13 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(11-12-2016 05:29 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  There are 3 genders: male, female, and attack helicopter.
What about Hideyoshi?

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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12-12-2016, 06:49 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
Easy.
Gender = This is how I see myself.
Sex = My genitals.
Gender Expression = How I express myself when it comes to Gender roles / clothing / etc

Most people:
Gender: F // Sex: F // Gender Expression: F
Gender: M // Sex: M // Gender Expression: M

Many people:
Gender: F // Sex: F // Gender Expression: F+M
Gender: M // Sex: M // Gender Expression: M+F

Some people:
Gender: F // Sex: F // Gender Expression: M
Gender: M // Sex: M // Gender Expression: F

A few people:
Gender: F // Sex: M// Gender Expression: F
Gender: M // Sex: F // Gender Expression: M

And then there is of course any other possible mix of this stuff.
I also left our all the extra boxes like androgyn and so on. That is on purpose to keep it simple.

I would like to say that I don't care but I do.
I care about being accepted the way I am because I accept people the way they are. I guess the world is not yet ready to accept people the way they are.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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12-12-2016, 08:10 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding in this conversation about the ideas presented.

The way we think about gender is framed by two things: societal gender norms, and biological sex. Yes, biological sex is genetically determined, and, with a few rare exceptions, is expressed by our genitalia and our chromosomes. Societal gender norms can't be ignored in this conversation as these social constructs tend to leave more masculine women and, even more so for feminine men, wondering where they fit into this picture as they almost certainly aren't going to fit in with their peers.

However, there is a third part to this story. It's what is typically referred to as "gender" when differentiating between gender and sex. And there is a reason for this differentiation. It's because gender, as defined here, is independent of biological sex and of social gender norms. It does not depend on your genital configuration. It is not tied to typically masculine or feminine behavior such as dressing a certain way, wearing makeup, etc. It's what is responsible for gender dysphoria, which can be so strong that trans women have been known to mutilate their own genitals out of hatred for being trapped in what feels like an alien body.

Now, I don't understand this feeling any better than any other person who hasn't personally experienced it. But I have known many trans people, several of whom are very close friends and have confided in me about these thoughts and pivotal moments in their life. My best friend is trans, and she is a tomboy. She doesn't dress particularly feminine, enjoys weightlifting, doesn't wear makeup, is dating another trans female, and is pre-op. By many standards she would be considered a male. But she knew from the time she was about 3 that that wasn't right. And she didn't come out and start transitioning until she was almost 20, so clearly this wasn't a phase. We discussed this last time I saw her and I asked her how she knew. If you're not really feminine, you have a penis, and you're attracted to women, how do you know you're a woman? How are you different from just a not-super-manly man? And she had trouble putting it into words, but she told me that she just always knew that she was supposed to be all of those things with a vagina. And my take on that is this: Who the fuck am I to tell her that one of the things that has defined the entirety of her life and all of the experiences contained therein is invalid? Who the fuck am I? That's her narrative and no one else's.

To be clear, I didn't ask her this to question her identity. Even if I fully believed that this was a choice every person was making for no real medical or scientific reason, I would support them in it because it's their life. I was curious about her thoughts on gender in general and what makes one a man or woman if it isn't defined by sex, gender norms, or sexuality. I have mixed feelings about this myself, being a somewhat traditionally masculine female who couldn't care less about social norms of any type or what I have between my legs.

The fact is, we are just learning about a lot of this stuff. There's a whole lot we don't know about ourselves as a species. We know the science does support the notion that maternal hormones in utero are a strong predictor for gender expression and sexuality. And with any luck, we'll continue to explore these ideas. Any scientifically-minded person should want nothing less.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it- not even if I have said it- unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha
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