What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
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12-12-2016, 08:26 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 06:49 PM)Leela Wrote:  Easy.
Gender = This is how I see myself.
Sex = My genitals.
Gender Expression = How I express myself when it comes to Gender roles / clothing / etc

Most people:
Gender: F // Sex: F // Gender Expression: F
Gender: M // Sex: M // Gender Expression: M

Many people:
Gender: F // Sex: F // Gender Expression: F+M
Gender: M // Sex: M // Gender Expression: M+F

Some people:
Gender: F // Sex: F // Gender Expression: M
Gender: M // Sex: M // Gender Expression: F

A few people:
Gender: F // Sex: M// Gender Expression: F
Gender: M // Sex: F // Gender Expression: M

And then there is of course any other possible mix of this stuff.
I also left our all the extra boxes like androgyn and so on. That is on purpose to keep it simple.

I would like to say that I don't care but I do.
I care about being accepted the way I am because I accept people the way they are. I guess the world is not yet ready to accept people the way they are.

I get steaming mad when idiots say that transgender people are mentally ill. I get so mad that I can't hardly type on my keyboard. I've linked them to the same scientific evidence I've posted in this thread. It doesn't matter. They've made up their minds that transgender people are mentally ill and that's it. Bunch of assholes.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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12-12-2016, 08:55 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 08:26 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I get steaming mad when idiots say that transgender people are mentally ill. I get so mad that I can't hardly type on my keyboard. I've linked them to the same scientific evidence I've posted in this thread. It doesn't matter. They've made up their minds that transgender people are mentally ill and that's it. Bunch of assholes.
Why do facts make you mad? Gender dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder by the ICS and DSM. Consider

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12-12-2016, 09:17 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 08:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 08:26 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I get steaming mad when idiots say that transgender people are mentally ill. I get so mad that I can't hardly type on my keyboard. I've linked them to the same scientific evidence I've posted in this thread. It doesn't matter. They've made up their minds that transgender people are mentally ill and that's it. Bunch of assholes.
Why do facts make you mad? Gender dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder by the ICS and DSM. Consider

Yes, and at one time phlogiston theory was reputed to explain the propagation of light. What's your point?
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12-12-2016, 09:20 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 08:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 08:26 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I get steaming mad when idiots say that transgender people are mentally ill. I get so mad that I can't hardly type on my keyboard. I've linked them to the same scientific evidence I've posted in this thread. It doesn't matter. They've made up their minds that transgender people are mentally ill and that's it. Bunch of assholes.
Why do facts make you mad? Gender dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder by the ICS and DSM. Consider

Except people use that as a way to demonize them so the reaction is understandable.
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12-12-2016, 10:54 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
Homosexuality was also once considered a mental disorder.

I think there was a reason I stayed out of this thread. I feel like overall ignorance of the topic breeds a lot of hatred from people who just refuse to understand it as a nuanced subject matter.

hurr hurr "attack helicopter" jokes. As if we've never heard those before, and as if they add anything constructive to the conversation. As if someone's gender identity is anyone else's business. Just let trans people live their lives in peace, folks.
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12-12-2016, 11:38 PM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 08:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 08:26 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I get steaming mad when idiots say that transgender people are mentally ill. I get so mad that I can't hardly type on my keyboard. I've linked them to the same scientific evidence I've posted in this thread. It doesn't matter. They've made up their minds that transgender people are mentally ill and that's it. Bunch of assholes.
Why do facts make you mad? Gender dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder by the ICS and DSM. Consider

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/natio...story.html

And this from the American Psychological Association

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

My daughter, since transitioning and being on hormone, does not suffer from gender dysphoria now. She is happy and at ease with herself. Dysphoria means "distress", that's all it means. Having dysphoria is a side effect of being transgender, it is not the cause of it and not all transgender people suffer from it.

And one last thing, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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13-12-2016, 01:26 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 01:34 AM by Gilgamesh.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 11:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 08:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Why do facts make you mad? Gender dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder by the ICS and DSM. Consider

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/natio...story.html

And this from the American Psychological Association

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

My daughter, since transitioning and being on hormone, does not suffer from gender dysphoria now. She is happy and at ease with herself. Dysphoria means "distress", that's all it means. Having dysphoria is a side effect of being transgender, it is not the cause of it and not all transgender people suffer from it.

And one last thing, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
"
If your daughter is biologically a male, but wouldn't experience gender dysphoria by identifying as such, then she is not a transgender. "The terms transsexualism, dual-role transvestism, gender identity disorder in adolescents or adults and gender identity disorder not otherwise specified are listed as such in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases (ICD) or the American Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) under codes F64.0, F64.1, 302.85 and 302.6 respectively. The DSM-5 refers to the topic as gender dysphoria."

Sorry but I'm gonna take the professionals word for it.
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13-12-2016, 05:36 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
But realistically, you can't thrive in the shitshow we call modern life without at least a few mental disorders anyway.

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13-12-2016, 07:06 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 01:26 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 11:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/natio...story.html

And this from the American Psychological Association

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

My daughter, since transitioning and being on hormone, does not suffer from gender dysphoria now. She is happy and at ease with herself. Dysphoria means "distress", that's all it means. Having dysphoria is a side effect of being transgender, it is not the cause of it and not all transgender people suffer from it.

And one last thing, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
"
If your daughter is biologically a male, but wouldn't experience gender dysphoria by identifying as such, then she is not a transgender. "The terms transsexualism, dual-role transvestism, gender identity disorder in adolescents or adults and gender identity disorder not otherwise specified are listed as such in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases (ICD) or the American Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) under codes F64.0, F64.1, 302.85 and 302.6 respectively. The DSM-5 refers to the topic as gender dysphoria."

Sorry but I'm gonna take the professionals word for it.

The DSM only deals with psychological problems, not with what it considers normal. Because transgendered people who do not experience dysphoria are considered normal by the psychological community, they do not get an entry.

Simply put: if you do not allow a trans person to live freely as their identity, then they can have serious psychological ramifications as a result (especially in a world where numbskulls keep writing it off as "just feelings"), which we call dysphoria. As soon as you tell them they are free to live as trans persons, the problem stops, and it is no longer a psychological condition.

Tied for my favorite sci-fi book of all time is The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman. In it, a soldier from "today" ends up thousands of years in the future, over the course of the novel, due to the effects of relativistic time dilation, each time he returns home to earth from a campaign out in space. By his last mission in space, all of his troopers are homosexuals because the earth's severe overpopulation led the human race to decide to genetically reverse our "polarity" and only reproduce by cloning, as necessary. Because the protagonist is straight, they refer to him as "the old queer" behind his back. At one point, one of his subordinate officers, a female, comes by with some confiscated contraband liquor and proceeds to get drunk with him... and makes a pass at him. Despite the expertise in genetics, she was a "closet" heterosexual.

Try to image a world in which humans reproduced by cloning, and homosexuality was the absolute norm. And yet you "feel" as you do today, still liking the opposite sex. You would be okay with the homosexuals all around you, as long as you were still free to pursue a life of heterosexuality... because it's not just how you feel, it's who you are at the most fundamental neurologial/endocrine level.

If you were not permitted to be hetero, and were instead forced to pretend to conform to homosexual society, you would likely experience hetero-dysphoria... I know I'd probably kill myself if I was constantly attacked, berated, and/or derided for liking vagina. Jokes about how "hyper-macho" I am, all the time. Insinuations that there's something wrong with me... after all, look at my dysphoria!

Can you then understand what it must be like for trans persons in today's society?

They're not making it up. It's not "just feelings". And the science is showing us this.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-12-2016, 07:08 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 09:17 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Yes, and at one time phlogiston theory was reputed to explain the propagation of light. What's your point?
My point is that it's irrational to get mad about people basing their views about what is and isn't a mental illness on the views of the experts in the field. It might be classified differently in the future, but for now, it is what it is. The problem, in my opinion, isn't that people use the correct terminology to talk about gender dysphoria, it's that there is a significant societal stigma around all mental illnesses which leads people to, like GenesisNemesis said in his response, demonize those who suffer from them. It is no different from depression or schizophrenia in that the patients need therapy and other forms of treatment rather than ostracization.

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