What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
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13-12-2016, 07:19 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
Vosur - What part of "transsexualism is not gender dysphoria" are you having trouble with?

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13-12-2016, 07:21 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 11:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/natio...story.html

And this from the American Psychological Association

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

My daughter, since transitioning and being on hormone, does not suffer from gender dysphoria now. She is happy and at ease with herself. Dysphoria means "distress", that's all it means. Having dysphoria is a side effect of being transgender, it is not the cause of it and not all transgender people suffer from it.
I didn't say that transgenderism is a mental illness; it's the accompanying gender dysphoria that is. If you have an issue with that, I suggest you write to the people who classified it as such.

(12-12-2016 11:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  And one last thing, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

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13-12-2016, 07:22 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 07:28 AM by ELK12695.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(12-12-2016 10:54 PM)ViolexTV Wrote:  Homosexuality was also once considered a mental disorder.

And it might be again if people like Mike Pence gets in office over and over.

(12-12-2016 10:54 PM)ViolexTV Wrote:  I think there was a reason I stayed out of this thread. I feel like overall ignorance of the topic breeds a lot of hatred from people who just refuse to understand it as a nuanced subject matter.

Chill out. There has been no hatred or extreme bitchfighting in this thread. If there was, it would be in the fighting section. It is not in the fighting section.

(12-12-2016 10:54 PM)ViolexTV Wrote:  hurr hurr "attack helicopter" jokes. As if we've never heard those before, and as if they add anything constructive to the conversation. As if someone's gender identity is anyone else's business. Just let trans people live their lives in peace, folks.

I can say with 90 % certainty, that nobody who has posted in this thread has in their adult life insulted a random transsexual on the street. We're letting transsexsuals live alone plenty; most of us has jobs.

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13-12-2016, 07:23 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 07:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Vosur - What part of "transsexualism is not gender dysphoria" are you having trouble with?
Go ahead and quote the post in which I used the word "transsexualism." I'll wait. Drinking Beverage

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13-12-2016, 07:37 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 07:23 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 07:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Vosur - What part of "transsexualism is not gender dysphoria" are you having trouble with?
Go ahead and quote the post in which I used the word "transsexualism." I'll wait. Drinking Beverage

Every post you make seems to imply that dysphoria "accompanies" transsexualism, that a transsexual will be dysphoric, which implies it is a mental illness.

The mental illness only occurs when the person is prevented from living as a genuine transsexual. That suggests that the problem is social, not a fault in the transsexual, and that it's more than "just feelings" or a mental condition inherent to transsexualism.

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13-12-2016, 07:44 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 07:06 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Simply put: if you do not allow a trans person to live freely as their identity, then they can have serious psychological ramifications as a result (especially in a world where numbskulls keep writing it off as "just feelings"), which we call dysphoria. As soon as you tell them they are free to live as trans persons, the problem stops, and it is no longer a psychological condition.
Quote:The mental illness only occurs when the person is prevented from living as a genuine transsexual. That suggests that the problem is social, not a fault in the transsexual, and that it's more than "just feelings" or a mental condition inherent to transsexualism.

Not necessarily. A transgender may have dysphoria with their biological sex that can only be acquitted by sex reassignment surgery (thus making them a transsexual.) If one experiences gender dysphoria with their assigned sex, they are mentally ill by definition.
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13-12-2016, 07:49 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 01:26 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  If your daughter is biologically a male, but wouldn't experience gender dysphoria by identifying as such, then she is not a transgender. "The terms transsexualism, dual-role transvestism, gender identity disorder in adolescents or adults and gender identity disorder not otherwise specified are listed as such in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases (ICD) or the American Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) under codes F64.0, F64.1, 302.85 and 302.6 respectively. The DSM-5 refers to the topic as gender dysphoria."

Sorry but I'm gonna take the professionals word for it.

Respectfully, Gilgamesh, this is simply not an accurate description of what you're quoting, except in the case of the ICD, which I frankly don't know enough about (in terms of its nature as an organization and its dedication to unbiased science) to cite from.

Not all people prevented from living as transsexuals (which DF2 has, wonderfully, not made a problem for her daughter) will experience dysphoria. They are not 100% linked, and they are not automatically causative... it's certainly not a descriptor-trait for transsexual persons.

The ICD has not yet made the update that the DSM-V made, taking transsexualism off the list. However, since you listed the DSM's section 302.85, I will point out that you are ignoring the last line of that sections's diagnostic characteristics:

The second necessity is that the condition should be connected with clinically important distress, or affects the individual significantly socially, at work, and in other import areas of life.

Further, the notes on the DSM's designation of childhood trans* identity diagnosis includes the following:

It is proposed that the name gender identity disorder (GID) be replaced by “Gender Incongruence” (GI) because the latter is a descriptive term that better reflects the core of the problem: an incongruence between, on the one hand, what identity one experiences and/or expresses and, on the other hand, how one is expected to live based on one’s assigned gender (usually at birth) (Meyer-Bahlburg, 2009a; Winters, 2005).

They are, however slowly, coming around to recognizing that the issue is not a fault in the trans* persons, but in their ability to adapt to a culture which refuses to recognize their nature or allow them to live as their brains are telling them they must.

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13-12-2016, 07:51 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 07:44 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Not necessarily. A transgender may have dysphoria with their biological sex that can only be acquitted by sex reassignment surgery (thus making them a transsexual.) If one experiences gender dysphoria with their assigned sex, they are mentally ill by definition.

Yes, dysphoria is a mental condition which, as I described above and you can read for yourself in the DSM, is defined by extreme problems with their own genitals and/or identity. That's why it's listed in the DSM.

That has no bearing on whether or not they are a transsexual, and/or whether transsexuals are mentally ill, which is really the point of this conversation.

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13-12-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 07:37 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Every post you make seems to imply that dysphoria "accompanies" transsexualism, that a transsexual will be dysphoric, which implies it is a mental illness. The mental illness only occurs when the person is prevented from living as a genuine transsexual. That suggests that the problem is social, not a fault in the transsexual, and that it's more than "just feelings" or a mental condition inherent to transsexualism.
You're muddying the waters significantly by switching back and forth between the words "transgender and "transsexual." The terms aren't interchangeable because transsexuals are a subset of transgender people. That being said, in a previous post, I made an explicit distinction between transgenderism and the gender dysphoria that accompanies it so I don't think your interpretation of my posts as conflating the two is accurate.

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13-12-2016, 08:05 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 07:59 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 07:37 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Every post you make seems to imply that dysphoria "accompanies" transsexualism, that a transsexual will be dysphoric, which implies it is a mental illness. The mental illness only occurs when the person is prevented from living as a genuine transsexual. That suggests that the problem is social, not a fault in the transsexual, and that it's more than "just feelings" or a mental condition inherent to transsexualism.
You're muddying the waters significantly by switching back and forth between the words "transgender and "transsexual." The terms aren't interchangeable because transsexuals are a subset of transgender people. That being said, in a previous post, I made an explicit distinction between transgenderism and the gender dysphoria that accompanies it so I don't think your interpretation of my posts as conflating the two is accurate.

Excellent point, on the words "transgender" and "transsexual". It's why I usually use trans* as a generic.

But it's 8AM, I only woke up an hour ago, and I'm only halfway through my first cup of coffee. Heh. My bad. No part of my response was intended to make a distinction between transgender and transsexual, on your part or my own.

I'm more taking issue with the conflation of trans* persons with the dysphoria that results from social pressure (not an inherent issue with trans* persons, but their reaction to social restrictions that amount, to them, to psychological torture), as if the two are automatically related. Surely you have seen it frequently used, "Well, after all, Gender Dysphoria is in the DSM... so trans* people are mentally ill!"

One must be very careful in their phrasing to avoid such conflations, or giving the appearance of making such a conflation.

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