What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
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13-12-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
Curiously, RockenSurgeon, how do you define transgender?
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13-12-2016, 08:12 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 08:16 AM by CosmicRaven.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
Ugh. I should have known that this thread would just degrade into a dramatic disaster.

Edit: Actually, it might be calming down a bit now.

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13-12-2016, 08:16 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
I find John Oliver to be very helpful on breaking down some of the issues:




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-12-2016, 08:27 AM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2016 08:57 AM by Ohio Sky.)
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
There is clearly a lack of understanding here as to why gender identity issues are addressed in the DSM. It's purely for the sake of the bureaucracy of our medical system and has nothing to do with how the mental field actually views these issues. They were included in order to receive any kind of treatment (i.e. gender reassignment surgery and/or hormones) and have it be covered by insurance because these drugs and procedures and prohibitive expensive.

Transgenderism was removed from the DSM because there is no viable medical or therapeutic treatment for it. Conversion therapies don't work any better on trans people than they do on gay people - which is to say, they're far more effective as suicide commands than as either conversion or therapy tactics. Gender dysphoria was put in place of transgenderism because there is a viable treatment for it through HRT and/or surgery. Just as you can't expect someone with depression or schizophrenia to suddenly not be depressed or schizophrenic without treatment, gender dysphoria doesn't go away untreated. Because it's an actual thing.

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13-12-2016, 08:29 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
Gender dysphoria. Rolleyes

Let's say you have a male who is biologically male, identifies as male, dresses as male - is 100% male in all senses of the word. Now let's just say for shits and giggles, everyone else sees this same person as female. They talk to him like he's female, act like he's female, heterosexual males make the same passes at him that they would at a female, etc. And this is real, not a hallucination.

My guess is, this guy is going to feel distressed. A lot. Why? Because he's NOT female. Would this distress surprise anyone here? Would anyone consider this an abnormal reaction to this situation?

Why is it different for someone who is transgender? So-called gender dysphoria is not mental illness. What they are experiencing is normal dysphoria, not gender dsyphoria, the same as anyone in the same situation would experience.

I don't care that gender dysphoria is classified as mental illness in the DSM or any other place. The field of psychology is still in its infancy and this isn't the first thing that the "experts" got wrong. There are few people in today's society that understand transgender people because it is very difficult. While I'm empathetic and have some intellectual comprehension on the subject, I don't pretend to truly understand what transgender people experience. The "experts" are humans. Why should they be any different?

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13-12-2016, 08:30 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:05 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 07:59 AM)Vosur Wrote:  You're muddying the waters significantly by switching back and forth between the words "transgender and "transsexual." The terms aren't interchangeable because transsexuals are a subset of transgender people. That being said, in a previous post, I made an explicit distinction between transgenderism and the gender dysphoria that accompanies it so I don't think your interpretation of my posts as conflating the two is accurate.

Excellent point, on the words "transgender" and "transsexual". It's why I usually use trans* as a generic.

But it's 8AM, I only woke up an hour ago, and I'm only halfway through my first cup of coffee. Heh. My bad. No part of my response was intended to make a distinction between transgender and transsexual, on your part or my own.

I'm more taking issue with the conflation of trans* persons with the dysphoria that results from social pressure (not an inherent issue with trans* persons, but their reaction to social restrictions that amount, to them, to psychological torture), as if the two are automatically related. Surely you have seen it frequently used, "Well, after all, Gender Dysphoria is in the DSM... so trans* people are mentally ill!"

One must be very careful in their phrasing to avoid such conflations, or giving the appearance of making such a conflation.
That's a strange take on the cause of dysphoria. The transgender people I've talked to have told me that even absent any social stigmatization, they would still want to transition because their gender dysphoria is mainly caused by the mismatch between the gender of their brain and the sex of their body. What dancefortwo said about the transition of her transgender daughter and the subsequent lack of gender dysphoria reinforces that point in my view.

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13-12-2016, 08:38 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:16 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I find John Oliver to be very helpful on breaking down some of the issues:





lol I'm not watching John 'the cuck' Oliver. I don't watch Fake News™

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13-12-2016, 08:38 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:30 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 08:05 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Excellent point, on the words "transgender" and "transsexual". It's why I usually use trans* as a generic.

But it's 8AM, I only woke up an hour ago, and I'm only halfway through my first cup of coffee. Heh. My bad. No part of my response was intended to make a distinction between transgender and transsexual, on your part or my own.

I'm more taking issue with the conflation of trans* persons with the dysphoria that results from social pressure (not an inherent issue with trans* persons, but their reaction to social restrictions that amount, to them, to psychological torture), as if the two are automatically related. Surely you have seen it frequently used, "Well, after all, Gender Dysphoria is in the DSM... so trans* people are mentally ill!"

One must be very careful in their phrasing to avoid such conflations, or giving the appearance of making such a conflation.
That's a strange take on the cause of dysphoria. The transgender people I've talked to have told me that even absent any social stigmatization, they would still want to transition because their gender dysphoria is mainly caused by the mismatch between the gender of their brain and the sex of their body. What dancefortwo said about the transition of her transgender daughter and the subsequent lack of gender dysphoria reinforces that point in my view.

Not at all. Wanting to transition is not dysphoria. Not wanting to transition does not mean the person is not transgendered.

Have you not been reading what I posted from the DSM about what it takes to constitute dysphoria?

It's defined by extreme problems related to loathing of one's birth parts, identity, etc., and difficulty functioning normally in society (such as work) as a result. It's not simply "I am in the wrong body", which is just a generic definition of transgender.

And as Ohio Sky pointed out, the DSM's dysphoria designation is often necessary to get insurance companies to pay for the doctors to provide the treatment (same is true for trans* prisoners, by the way) they need.

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13-12-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:38 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 08:16 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I find John Oliver to be very helpful on breaking down some of the issues:





lol I'm not watching John 'the cuck' Oliver. I don't watch Fake News™

Well that's fine, Gilly. If you're going to ignore his points simply because you don't like him, I'm going to ignore you as a dishonest douchebag.

I was mainly posting it for Vosur, who is at least an intellectually honest person, even though I disagree on many points.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-12-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: What Is Your Viewpoint on Gender and Gender Identity?
(13-12-2016 08:40 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 08:38 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  lol I'm not watching John 'the cuck' Oliver. I don't watch Fake News™

Well that's fine, Gilly. If you're going to ignore his points simply because you don't like him, I'm going to ignore you as a dishonest douchebag.

I was mainly posting it for Vosur, who is at least an intellectually honest person, even though I disagree on many points.

Gender dysphoria is required to be transgender. Try to define transgender without dysphoria. You can't. It's necessary.

Dishonest? lol okay.

Says the personal who desperately wants to make a distinction between gender dysphoria and extreme gender dysphoria so they don't have to concede that being transgender means you're mentally ill.
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