What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
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06-05-2016, 02:38 PM
RE: What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
(06-05-2016 09:39 AM)mgoering Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 03:19 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  I think Mormonism can tell us a bit more about religion than all that, as those who have been following the CES letter saga can attest. Specifically, it tells us how religion punishes, vilifies, slanders, and ultimately rejects honest truth-seekers when the truth they uncover is unsavory to their faith.

I had heard of the CES letter before, but only yesterday did I go read it in it's entirety. Jeremy Runnels is not timid at all about taking on the Mormon church. I think the crazy claims this religion makes can easily be debunked and he's done an excellent job of it. It appears that the church and its apologists are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to defend what THEY even know is not true. Unfortunately for them, the internet has opened up the flood gates and there's no way to hold it back.

I just read the CES letters after hearing about them here.
It is a really good resource for everything in one place.
Thanks for pointing that out.
I recommend it to anyone who has spent any time in the mormon church.
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07-05-2016, 12:16 PM
RE: What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
I have yet to read the CES letters, but I did convert to Mormonism in 1998. The missionaries are pretty good salesmen if you buy into their message. The missionary discussions mostly preach about Jesus and the restoration, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. In the last 18 years I have tried to read that book, would get about half way through it and some switch in my brain would flip and I would be like this is bullshit and quit reading it. Funny thing is that I would get that same feeling when I was reading the bible in the last couple of years. Guess it was my rational thoughts breaking through. This church is a truly "modern" church and there is a plethora of information out there for potential investigators to look at. Most members are encouraged to pray about it and they will get their answers. Never happened for me, wondered if I was doing it right or not. Mormonism in my opinion was created by Joseph Smith as a new money making scheme and it just exploded into what it became because Smith was murdered. I think that if he wasn"t killed, he would have eventually been exposed as a fraud and the religion would have died off eventually. I'm kind of a conspiracy type person and I wonder if maybe the Smith murder was a setup in the first place. One avenue that I wonder if was ever explored is that Smith planned it with the "mob" to have them attack the jail. I could totally be off base here. Maybe the brother being killed was purely accidential. In any event, this singular moment in Mormon history I believe is the point in which the religion took off and became the juggernaut it is today.
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09-05-2016, 09:14 AM
RE: What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
(05-05-2016 03:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 01:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It would be more interesting if we take such observations to doubt rational thought. The belief there's some thought process in the brain that gets "suspended" to accept a variety of beliefs. Perhaps observation like this suggest that our thought processes are messy sort of things, and the belief in this sort of pure way of thinking, often referred to as "objective" or "rational" is a myth of it's own making.

It seems to me that much of our beliefs about being rational, are remnants of dualism, the days in which we believed in free-will, and such. Perhaps we should rethink it.

Perhaps not. (We already know you believe in irrationality).
We already know what this represents :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmen...sychology)

Do people who compartmentalize know that they compartmentalize? Do you compartmentalize? Or do you not know if you do or not?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-05-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
(09-05-2016 09:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-05-2016 03:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Perhaps not. (We already know you believe in irrationality).
We already know what this represents :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmen...sychology)

Do people who compartmentalize know that they compartmentalize? Do you compartmentalize? Or do you not know if you do or not?

I don't compartmentalize. I integrate. So I know that I don't hold contradictory notions. If I were to accept the notion that gods exist, I'd have to compartmentalize or refuse to integrate that idea with the rest of my knowledge. You do compartmentalize. All theists do. The notion of gods can not be integrated with a rational view of the world. You hold on the one hand the primacy of consciousness view of the world and on the other hand, the primacy of existence view of the world. The two are irretrievably irreconcilable.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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09-05-2016, 10:39 AM
RE: What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
(09-05-2016 10:18 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I don't compartmentalize. I integrate. So I know that I don't hold contradictory notions. If I were to accept the notion that gods exist, I'd have to compartmentalize or refuse to integrate that idea with the rest of my knowledge. You do compartmentalize. All theists do. The notion of gods can not be integrated with a rational view of the world. You hold on the one hand the primacy of consciousness view of the world and on the other hand, the primacy of existence view of the world. The two are irretrievably irreconcilable.

Compartmentalization as I understand would require two separate trains of thought that one applies to one's theism, and a separate set in regards to everything else, which seems to be unconscious, according the definition of the term. If one's thought process when it comes to theism, is also applied everywhere else, while you might take issue with that particular thought process, I don't see how this would fall into compartmentalization. Perhaps a person places a great deal of importance on their subjective take on things, and are entirely consistent in this everywhere else in their life too.

When atheists tend to speak of a rational view of the world, it seem at some level based on some set up arbitrary rules they devote themselves to following, in which they themselves are the arbiters as to whether they're being consistent in this or not, in whether their being rational, or not, or refraining from compartmentalization of their own.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-05-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
(09-05-2016 10:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 10:18 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I don't compartmentalize. I integrate. So I know that I don't hold contradictory notions. If I were to accept the notion that gods exist, I'd have to compartmentalize or refuse to integrate that idea with the rest of my knowledge. You do compartmentalize. All theists do. The notion of gods can not be integrated with a rational view of the world. You hold on the one hand the primacy of consciousness view of the world and on the other hand, the primacy of existence view of the world. The two are irretrievably irreconcilable.

Compartmentalization as I understand would require two separate trains of thought that one applies to one's theism, and a separate set in regards to everything else, which seems to be unconscious, according the definition of the term. If one's thought process when it comes to theism, is also applied everywhere else, while you might take issue with that particular thought process, I don't see how this would fall into compartmentalization. Perhaps a person places a great deal of importance on their subjective take on things, and are entirely consistent in this everywhere else in their life too.

When atheists tend to speak of a rational view of the world, it seem at some level based on some set up arbitrary rules they devote themselves to following, in which they themselves are the arbiters as to whether they're being consistent in this or not, in whether their being rational, or not, or refraining from compartmentalization of their own.

Mine are not arbitrary. The ultimate arbiter is reality.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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09-05-2016, 02:18 PM
RE: What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
(09-05-2016 01:55 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Mine are not arbitrary. The ultimate arbiter is reality.

That's just magical thinking on your part. Reality is not a being, it has no concern as to whether you believe true things or not, and is no arbiter or judge. It does not speak in propositions, and is silent when you ask it questions. The imaginary arbiter is just a projection of your own mind.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-05-2016, 04:01 PM
RE: What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
(09-05-2016 02:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 01:55 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Mine are not arbitrary. The ultimate arbiter is reality.

That's just magical thinking on your part. Reality is not a being, it has no concern as to whether you believe true things or not, and is no arbiter or judge. It does not speak in propositions, and is silent when you ask it questions. The imaginary arbiter is just a projection of your own mind.

You are right. I should have used the word standard instead of arbiter. I base all of my principles on an objective understanding of reality. Reality is my standard for judging truth from falsehood.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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09-05-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: What Mormonism tells us about religious faith
(09-05-2016 10:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 10:18 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I don't compartmentalize. I integrate. So I know that I don't hold contradictory notions. If I were to accept the notion that gods exist, I'd have to compartmentalize or refuse to integrate that idea with the rest of my knowledge. You do compartmentalize. All theists do. The notion of gods can not be integrated with a rational view of the world. You hold on the one hand the primacy of consciousness view of the world and on the other hand, the primacy of existence view of the world. The two are irretrievably irreconcilable.

Compartmentalization as I understand would require two separate trains of thought that one applies to one's theism, and a separate set in regards to everything else, which seems to be unconscious, according the definition of the term. If one's thought process when it comes to theism, is also applied everywhere else, while you might take issue with that particular thought process, I don't see how this would fall into compartmentalization. Perhaps a person places a great deal of importance on their subjective take on things, and are entirely consistent in this everywhere else in their life too.

When atheists tend to speak of a rational view of the world, it seem at some level based on some set up arbitrary rules they devote themselves to following, in which they themselves are the arbiters as to whether they're being consistent in this or not, in whether their being rational, or not, or refraining from compartmentalization of their own.

Yes theists are not conscious of the fact that they hold to two different metaphysical views, one in the context of their god belief and one in the context of their day to day life. They aren't conscious of it because for one thing they take things on faith and for another they don't know what the fundamental premises assumed by their beliefs in gods are. If they were conscious of them, and they haven't abandoned reason, there would be a great many fewer theists in the world. But those who take faith seriously as a means to knowledge have abandoned reason.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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