What Proof do Atheists Want?
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27-11-2012, 01:01 AM
 
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(26-11-2012 06:31 AM)Filox Wrote:  OP:

You know, these last few years, since I am a hard-cored atheist, I often wondered what kind of proof would satisfy me.

Then you are in no way a hardcore atheist. I think even the hardcore atheists would agree with me on that one. Yes

Quote: You see, the truth is the problem with everything religious-like. I understand that you see God is the miracle of life, in the sadness of death, in the bird that flies, in the complexity of human thoughts, in the incredible Universe...

Well said, but I’m not talking religion in this post. I understand that religion fails, but if you never saw the difference between faith and religion, then you missed the boat.

Quote:All that I can explain to myself. I understand the evolution, I understand human complexity, because I learned all sorts of shit, so I can deconstruct human body in my mind and I can understand the small mechanisms that run us, I can also combine all that into one big piece of machinery, and although there is magic in all that, I can understand it, so I do not see Go or gods in that, or in the miracle of life, the sadness of death... I see biology and mechanisms, chemistry and chemical reactions, physics and laws of physics... The Universe.

First off, stop being such a stupid delusional narcissist. You’re claiming to understand things no one else does. I’ve spent a lot of time in school studying biology. I understand the theory of evolution, and I would never say I understand the sadness of death or the tiny mechanisms that make everything happen. No

So what? You don’t feel wowed by the revelation of nature. People who think like you do never see the wonder in anything. If there is wonder in anything, they have to step down from being everything and you’d never do that. You can’t do that because people have made you feel like a piece of shit in your life and narcissism is better than blowing your fucking brains out onto the wall.

May I suggest martial arts? Get beat up enough times like I do every week, then get good enough to win every once in a while, and suddenly it doesn’t matter so much what other people ever thought of you—they can’t kick your ass, so fuck’em.

That’s self-esteem without narcissism. Then maybe you’ll be free of your Godhood, and be able to throw yourself into the Mystery. If you can’t do that, don’t fucking preach to me about life and what you understand of it.

(hey…you said you wanted a reply) Angel

Quote:So what else am I left with? What else can I "see" to see God? Obviously, nature is not something I will see god in. The Universe and the life itself is also not something to view god, it is all natural and normal for me, a part of natural life. Where god would be something super-natural, so I do not see it in nature.

The only thing left for me to see God is the Word of God. Now, there is a HUGE problem with this, as I see this as the Word of Men Trying to Imitate God. I can clearly see all the LIES that every organized religion is spreading, I can taste their hypocrisy and hate toward "infidels". So no, I can not see god or God in the Word of God, any Word of any god. It is a human word, it is used by humans for their own secret agendas, it is twisted and perverted by humans, to obtain more power over "ordinary" people.

Just read the Gospels, the four of them, and don’t worry about the rest, and try to realize they are fictional. Forget all religion. Just read Matthew and John, and try to understand what the writer meant in the symbols he used. Imagine Jesus represents the idea of the evolved man as one with God and Truth, and try to imagine all the other characters as aspects of your personality that keep you from finding that oneness.

If you can’t do that without remembering the time you were spanked for acting out in church, then you’re fucked when it comes to understanding the Word of God.

The Old Testament is Jewish shit, don’t even bother with it .

Most of the New Testament consists of letters—other Christians no different than you voicing their opinions. Forget them.

The Gospels: No one has a clue who wrote them. The symbolism is so deep you can spend your whole life trying to figure it out. They are perfect literature, and no one was out to control anyone when they were written.

Do with them what you will—what you are able to. Drinking Beverage


Quote:Now, we might argue about Bible and the Word, about the Truth and lies... Seriously, now stop and think about this. You or anyone else can never say that the Bible, Qur'an, or any other book are written by the hand of god. We even have scriptures and we know the names of people who wrote the books. So in light of all this, these are all books written by humans.

Well, they weren’t written by aliens, that’s for sure. No

Quote:In the end, what you are asking is why do I not believe in ancient human books, written by humans, for humans, about some other older humans. Sure, it's like I ask you why do you not believe in Shakespeare?

Today, our modern technology has given us the opportunity to falsify almost anything, so that is even more reason for not trusting religious freaks.

If you were to give up atheism and become religious, you would be as whacked out as you were before. Going to church is a sin. If you can’t make up your own religion, a religion for you, a religion of one, then stay an atheist. At least that’s something like your own religion. Maybe God will have mercy on your soul. Who knows?

Quote:To answer your question (finally, right) I think that there is only one way I could believe in god. God must come down, stand in front of me and prove it is god and it is worthy of my trust and my worship.

I have lots of patients who are certain demons are in the shower and they won’t take one. If God did that to you, it would be a hallucination. Even if you told me that happened to you, I wouldn’t believe it. I’d think you were psychotic, and I’d try to convince you that you were psychotic and needed help.

And, for the record, God never did that for Jesus, why would he do it for you? Jesus came to know he was the Son of God because he was able to take himself to the point of near death in the desert and with all the opportunities Satan gave him for worldly power, he was able to turn them down.

I wouldn’t have turned them down. I know that. Unsure

Quote:In the end, it would fail, as I would prescribe it to be an alien life form. Very evolved, advanced and powerful alien life form.

See. See how quickly even the idea of God doing that becomes like a psychotic hallucination? If God appeared in the clouds, and everyone saw it, I’d never believe that was God. Cuz God just doesn’t roll that way. No

Quote:And I would be right, because there is no such thing as god, there can only be a more advanced being out there, you will call it supreme being, I would call it highly advanced and evolved.

Right. There is no God like the one you are describing. It doesn’t exist. At best we are talking about advanced aliens.

Quote:So you see, the whole concept of "god" does not exist in my head anymore.

Really? What the fuck are we talking about then? Huh

Quote:Even if god was to come down here and bitchslap me, I would still consider him/her just to be one big fuck up, like Q, from Star Trek.

I hope I made my point clear.

Crystal. But consider Q. What is it that makes him not a god? He has all the power of Christ. He’s like a god, but He’s not God? Why?

See, now if you were in a Theology class, you might have to write an essay on that topic. If I were a Theology professor, I’d assign it, that’s for sure.

Quote:There is no god. Period.

Prove it. Cool
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27-11-2012, 02:40 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 01:01 AM)Egor Wrote:  
Quote:There is no god. Period.

Prove it. Cool


Oh Snap! You've got us there Egor! We have nothing now, it's all been disproved! Weeping



Jokes aside, I will say the statement "There is no god. Period." is in error; As to know such a fact, one must know everything about the universe, which is itself an impossible feat.

Since that obvious statement out of the way, I will say that it can be said, without needing an equal degree of knowledge, that the christian god (a la the god described in christian biblical texts) does not exist due to the amount of error in the book, it's description of said deity logically is incorrect, and thus it does not exist. The same can be said for Muslim and Jewish gods as well.



Also, saying prove it, doesn't disprove the opponent Egor.

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27-11-2012, 02:55 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Also, what the fuck is a 'hardcore atheist'? It's like saying that a woman is 'hardcore pregnant'. Just sayin'.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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27-11-2012, 02:57 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Malleus, if I had to guess I assume it is another term for referring to those who take the position of "Strong Atheist".

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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27-11-2012, 03:00 AM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2012 03:08 AM by Filox.)
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
'Ola Egor. Nice discussion, I will be glad to continue this...

Just to clarify things a little bit, when I said I often considered what proof would I need to believe in god, that statement only proves how much I don't have faith. How much I really am an atheist. I do not believe. Period. But if I were to believe, I would need a physical evidence, and therefor I would not be a believer again. If you have evidence and proof, you do not have faith, not if the evidence is a physical one, a real, not philosophical/theological one. You have misunderstood me as asking myself about the existence of god, no, I did not question that, I questioned what are my limits to faith and belief in god. I found out I have none, I need and want evidence and therefore I am not a believer, of any sort. Saying "hard-core atheist" was a bit of a figure of speech. In reality I am just an atheist. Hard-core would sound like I am militant, and I am not.

Now, when it comes to biology and evolution and all this super-scientific shit, I do understand it. That does not mean that I know everything about everything, but whatever did I read, I understood, I do not think that god did this, god did that, I can understand that there are a lot of mechanisms and chemical reactions in our body and around us and even if I do not know why something happens the way it does, I do not use "God of the gaps" to fill my lack of knowledge. I read something new or I just connect and simplify the thing I already know. Simple understanding of things does not mean I need to know everything about them, it means it just sits easy with me. For example, first time I learned chemical formulas, I was instantly teaching all my friends from class that had problems with understanding basic chemistry, I have solved all the books and equations from chemistry books 1 year in advance (I was 7th grade, books were 7th and 8th grade). That is why I say that I understand these things, they sit naturally to me, it is easy for me to understand chemistry and biology.

I know I sound narcissistic, but so what? I know why I do it, I feel like it. Smile

As for the Gospels, I can read them, but that will not show me god, or give me faith. I can, however, read them and use them as philosophy, as a moral guide or as literature with deeper meaning. Also, I was never spanked inn church, actually, nothing bad ever happened to me in church, or because of the church, so that has nothing to do with my atheism.

Regardless of how I think and how I see the world around me, I still see the beauty of nature, the miracles of the world and the wonders around me. It is just that I can explain why does it happen, at least I can put something together in my head. I will not see it as gods work, but I will see it as the miracle of nature. Hmmm, miracle is a bit too strong word, I fear you will misunderstand me again. But I did a lot of mountaineering, free climbing, alpinism and martial arts. Aikido, if you care. I did all this as it helped me come closer to nature, to my roots, to something that feels right and natural to me. It also helped me understand myself and the world, the concept of god and the organized religions. I had a revelation, but my was the opposite one of what most people have. Some would shoot themselves after these kind of revelations, yet I felt it was just what I was missing in my life, to throw away the shackles of lies and to embrace things as natural, as something normal, not supernatural, not god-like, not magical, unexplained and supreme.

And still, I like to go out in the woods, sleep under the stars, without even a tent. I like going to Aikido and bow down to the picture of o'sensei and then to my sensei. I like to waste time on philosophizing with myself. Yet still, the very idea of a god is completely unnatural to me. It is not something I can accept as real. It is not something that can fit in my picture of this world, of the nature. Actually, the concept of god goes against everything I know, feel and trust. It mocks my philosophy, it interferes with my zen, it does not fit together with my view of nature around me, it does not sound normal or sane to me. The whole concept is just ... unbelievable to me.

Therefore, I am an atheist. I can not believe in god, as I believe in myself and nature around me. I do not believe in my atheism, because I only use that word to make it easier for other people. Since I do not have the concept of god, I am neither theist or atheist, I have passed on from those simple "names" and classifications.

I am Filox.

P.S.

I do not need or want to prove god does not exist, because that would meant that we have proof he exists. No, first someone needs to prove he/she exists and that has never been done. So I need to prove nothing. I have my proofs and they do not prove god. They do not prove the opposite as well, but you might see it that way.

Perception is a bitch, same thing, multiple "explanations"... Right?

Big Grin

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27-11-2012, 03:05 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Quote:Regardless of how I think and how I see the world around me, I still see
the beauty of nature, the miracles of the world and the wonders around
me.

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27-11-2012, 03:14 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 03:05 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Regardless of how I think and how I see the world around me, I still see
the beauty of nature, the miracles of the world and the wonders around
me.

[Image: tumblr_m4hgvvYcZ71qftyzb.gif]
Jerk.

Leave me alone when I'm debating with Egor.

Sleepy

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27-11-2012, 03:20 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?



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27-11-2012, 03:24 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Fuck it, I can't see youtube, ma workplace has a filter...

Tongue

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27-11-2012, 03:27 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
... *facepalm*

Fine, I will go out of my way, put in effort at my expense, to accommodate to your shitty circumstances.
But you owe me, you owe me big.

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