What Proof do Atheists Want?
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27-11-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 11:11 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 10:57 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  And, I would hardly call these two ladies "preteen".

Even more creepy: preteens drawn with big breasts. I guess we know why you're an atheist. Yes
The girl who drew this was a Christian. Drinking Beverage

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27-11-2012, 11:29 AM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2012 12:04 PM by Vosur.)
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 11:12 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The girl who drew this was a Christian. Drinking Beverage
Exactly. Yes

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27-11-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
What current argument? I haven't made any argument in this thread.

You've made quite a few. You might consider them facts, but you haven't proven them yet, so they're arguments for or against certain points. For example, this one:

The Gospels suck as philosophy, and you can only find moral guidance in
them if you accept that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, otherwise, he's a
madman who's moral philosophy simply doesn't work in world that is
godless and fundamentally acausal.


Go forth and prove to the religious and academic communities that the gospels suck as philosophy. Until you do, it's an argument that hasn't been proven or defended by you.

And there's more in your next post:

Atheism is irrational. There is no atheist argument.
Argument, not fact.

Futhermore, the implications of atheism are horrific and beyond the psychology of the human mind to deal with.
Argument, not fact.

Fortunately, atheism is wrong.
Argument, not fact.

Only a conscious mind could establish the order required for the universe to exist.
Argument, not fact.

I love the way atheists will readily accept the existence of dark matter but refuse to believe in a Divine creator of any sort.
I don't accept the existence of dark matter until proper proof has been provided, and I'm an atheist. You're 100% wrong. I will also accept a divine creator when real proof is provided. You've failed so far, along with all the other religions of the world, to provide it.

Homosexuality
Catholic church.

Drug use
Theists use drugs.

Narcissism
Mega churches.

Oppositionalism
Theists have a hard time accepting the world. They want it to end.

Fornication
Catholic church.

Ignorance
All religions.

Anti-religionism
You can have this one.

PTSD
If there are no atheists in foxholes, and soldiers suffer from PTSD, then this argument is invalid.

Sexual deviancy
Human beings.

All you're providing is insight into how YOU are able to rationalize a god, and it's a weak framework. The fact that you try to demonize atheists with these assertions of dysfunction seems desperate. Replace 'atheists' with 'human beings' and you're back on track.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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27-11-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 11:08 AM)Egor Wrote:  Only a conscious mind could establish the order required for the universe to exist. The fact that things have to be a certain way prior to the universe existing, that certain parameters have to be met, that certain things have to be true is proof that there is design in the universe. Design proves conscious involvement.
So you are saying there is too much order in the universe for it and everything in it to have come about by accident. Therefore, there must be a god who created it.

And since there would have to be even more order in such a god for that god to be able to design this ordered universe, how do you explain that god's existence? Consider Do you accept that something that complex could just "be" somehow or do you think there is an infinite regression of creators? Either way, you must accept something just as difficult to fathom as an ordered universe that just came about on its own without a creator.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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27-11-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 11:47 AM)Impulse Wrote:  how do you explain that god's existence? Consider Do you accept that something that complex could just "be" somehow or do you think there is an infinite regression of creators? Either way, you must accept something just as difficult to fathom as an ordered universe that just came about on its own without a creator.
This is where theists use the special pleading fallacy. Their god is exempt from complexity, space and time, creation, etc. The universe has to have had a beginning, but god does not. Something as complex as the universe could not come about without a creator, but something as complex as god can.

William Lane Craig makes a really nice living employing this fallacy in his arguments.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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27-11-2012, 11:59 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 06:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  To those who believe in God, no proof is necessary--or perhaps it's just that we see proof everywhere. What's so frustrating about atheists is that they seem to refuse to see this proof, but maybe that's not fair. Maybe they really can't see any proof.

If you're an atheist (or theist) what proof do you need?

What type of proof do you have?
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27-11-2012, 12:00 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 10:51 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 12:46 AM)Irishdize Wrote:  If you are already convinced that you are right and non theists are wrong, why even bother debating?

Because I like to fight. Evil_monster

Quote:No new knowledge can be learned. If you are here to teach, then do so, provide valid reasons for non theists to have a belief in your God/religion, if you cannot do that then kindly shut the fuck up.

If you believed, then who would I fight with? Consider

I enjoy a good fight too but you have to have some kind of reason on each side to really have a good one, You have said God exists and proof is everywhere, I look around and I see The Goddess that I was raised to believe in, The Universe/Nature, I dont see proof of an externa, deity of any kind, I pray and nothing happens, I cast spells and nothing happen outside of my own imagination and self induced psychodrama, I read scriptures from different religions including yours and I am inspired sometimes, disgusted at others and yet nothing new happens, I have tried every test that every Christian I have met has asked of me to try and still nothing has happened so I guess God does not want me as a follower!

Yet, I am different than those here in that I am not an Atheist so for me personally you would have to only provide personal experience or evidence, not empiracal, that would follow later perhaps but I just need a personal experience, since I do not drink and am not delusional, I could trust my own experiences.

You would then have to convince me that what I had experienced was not part of my own religious beliefs, then that my current religion was flawed, dangerous or harmful and then later provide logical evidence for your religion and your God so you like a fight-Lets go!
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27-11-2012, 12:09 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 11:55 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  This is where theists use the special pleading fallacy. Their god is exempt from complexity, space and time, creation, etc. The universe has to have had a beginning, but god does not. Something as complex as the universe could not come about without a creator, but something as complex as god can.
Exactly. And I can understand how people do that - at one time I did it myself. However, what I don't understand is how it's "irrational" to believe the universe came into existence on it's own and needs a better explanation, but "rationale" to believe that a god, who would be far more complicated, needs no explanation at all. Rolleyes

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27-11-2012, 12:21 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 11:08 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 10:54 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Believe it or not, Egor used to post some good ideas and arguments. But this current argument... meh. Dodgy

What current argument? I haven't made any argument in this thread. All I asked is what kind of proof you would need in order to believe that some kind of Divine creator exists?

Atheism is irrational. There is no atheist argument. Futhermore, the implications of atheism are horrific and beyond the psychology of the human mind to deal with. Fortunately, atheism is wrong. Only a conscious mind could establish the order required for the universe to exist. The fact that things have to be a certain way prior to the universe existing, that certain parameters have to be met, that certain things have to be true is proof that there is design in the universe. Design proves conscious involvement. Therefore, atheism is irrational. There is no atheist argument.

I love the way atheists will readily accept the existence of dark matter but refuse to believe in a Divine creator of any sort. When will you all learn that this is not about theology or cosmology. It's about psychology. Atheism is false. All that's interesting is why a person would want to hold such delusions. Here are the main reasons:

Homosexuality
Drug use
Narcissism
Oppositionalism
Fornication
Ignorance
Anti-religionism
PTSD
Sexual deviancy

I might be missing a couple of categories, but over the years, these are pretty much the reasons people are atheists. None of it has to do with the existence of God. It's simply that the idea of God often gets in the way of one of these reasons. Undecided
Hi Egor!Just a few things. Regarding this statement: "Futhermore, the implications of atheism are horrific and beyond the psychology of the human mind to deal with.". Can you elaborate further? I'm curious as to why you think so.

Also, dark matter is just one of the many hypotheses out there used to explain parts of the mass of the universe. Each hypothesis remains a hypothesis until there is any evidence to back these hypothesis up (scientists are working on it at the moment Smile). The concept of a deity is also a hypothesis, a model used to explain many natural phenomena we see in the world today. However, there are many competing hypothesis that are backed up by evidence and are able to explain various natural phenomena better, which renders the former hypothesis invalid.

But let's look at the beginning of the universe. What started it? Well, we can have many hypothesis to explain how it all began. Let's look at two hypotheses:
1) God created the universe
2) The Big Bang started the universe
Without evidence, both stand on equal ground, remaining as pure hypothesis. However, this is not the case as there is evidence supporting the Big Bang (cosmic background radiation, expansion of space, etc). Indeed, there are still flaws in the Big Bang model, such as the the flatness problem. But that doesn't mean the other hypothesis is more valid.

So, regarding specifically the creation of the universe, are there any evidence that suggests a deity created the universe?

Your reasons why people become an atheist are kind of generalised and biased. It is possible to make a similar list why people might turn to theism. Different people can have different reasons why they choose a particular stance to faith.

Hope to hear your thoughts Big Grin

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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27-11-2012, 02:44 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 11:29 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 11:12 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The girl who drew this was a Christian. Drinking Beverage
Exactly. Yes
She became an atheist about 5 years after she drew it. At the time, she was actually very strong in her Christian beliefs. I'd know, we've been close friends since childhood.

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