What Proof do Atheists Want?
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28-11-2012, 09:48 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(28-11-2012 09:30 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(28-11-2012 09:27 AM)Vosur Wrote:  A square blade of grass? Consider
I didn't say it was wholly natural grass. I could make a 1cmx1cm blade of grass. Drinking Beverage
u r dum. Tongue

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28-11-2012, 09:51 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Personally I think it would be much more interesting if the grass was 1x1x1.

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28-11-2012, 10:08 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(28-11-2012 09:30 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(28-11-2012 09:27 AM)Vosur Wrote:  A square blade of grass? Consider
I didn't say it was wholly natural grass. I could make a 1cmx1cm blade of grass. Drinking Beverage
Oh yeah? Prove it. Cool

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28-11-2012, 11:59 AM
 
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 11:47 AM)Impulse Wrote:  So you are saying there is too much order in the universe for it and everything in it to have come about by accident. Therefore, there must be a god who created it.

And since there would have to be even more order in such a god for that god to be able to design this ordered universe, how do you explain that god's existence? Consider Do you accept that something that complex could just "be" somehow or do you think there is an infinite regression of creators? Either way, you must accept something just as difficult to fathom as an ordered universe that just came about on its own without a creator.

For many reasons, I have come to see God as pure consciousness. I don't see Him as a being made up of some kind of particles. That's why I often don't entertain atheists who want physical evidence as proof of God. I think that's similar to someone wanting liquid proof of air. Or a square proof of a circle. These same atheists are often unwilling to even consider consciousness as something other than a byproduct of brain chemistry, even though protozoa display consciousness without any neurology whatsoever, and the occurence of esp is an established fact.

The one thing about pure consciousness is that it necessarily must be one of a kind. Though I believe consciousness is the fundamental stuff all stuff is made from, I have no idea of the properties of consciousness--it may not even be accurate or logical to talk about "properties" of consciousness. For instance: Is consciousness orderly? I don't know. "Orderly" applies to physical systems, but the fundamental consciousness is not orderly compared to anything. It is one of a kind, there is nothing it "compares" to. The fundamental consciousness of the universe creates order in its physical systems, but that doesn't mean that it is also orderly. For instance, I can write a story, but I am not made of words.
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28-11-2012, 12:04 PM
 
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(28-11-2012 05:16 AM)Filox Wrote:  Egor, don't get cocky now!

Cool

Cocky? COCKEY? I'm all cock motherfucker!

No, wait...I didn't mean that the way it came out. Unsure
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28-11-2012, 12:50 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(28-11-2012 11:59 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 11:47 AM)Impulse Wrote:  So you are saying there is too much order in the universe for it and everything in it to have come about by accident. Therefore, there must be a god who created it.

And since there would have to be even more order in such a god for that god to be able to design this ordered universe, how do you explain that god's existence? Consider Do you accept that something that complex could just "be" somehow or do you think there is an infinite regression of creators? Either way, you must accept something just as difficult to fathom as an ordered universe that just came about on its own without a creator.

For many reasons, I have come to see God as pure consciousness. I don't see Him as a being made up of some kind of particles. That's why I often don't entertain atheists who want physical evidence as proof of God. I think that's similar to someone wanting liquid proof of air. Or a square proof of a circle. These same atheists are often unwilling to even consider consciousness as something other than a byproduct of brain chemistry, even though protozoa display consciousness without any neurology whatsoever, and the occurence of esp is an established fact.

The one thing about pure consciousness is that it necessarily must be one of a kind. Though I believe consciousness is the fundamental stuff all stuff is made from, I have no idea of the properties of consciousness--it may not even be accurate or logical to talk about "properties" of consciousness. For instance: Is consciousness orderly? I don't know. "Orderly" applies to physical systems, but the fundamental consciousness is not orderly compared to anything. It is one of a kind, there is nothing it "compares" to. The fundamental consciousness of the universe creates order in its physical systems, but that doesn't mean that it is also orderly. For instance, I can write a story, but I am not made of words.
Even pure consciousness would have to be orderly at some level. Otherwise, "God" would have intended to will us into existence and might have produced Martians on Mars instead.

Also, there are probably flaws in this reasoning, but I would think in order to even imagine the orderliness of the universe, one would have to have at least that same amount of order within oneself at some level.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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28-11-2012, 12:59 PM
Re: RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 06:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  To those who believe in God, no proof is necessary--or perhaps it's just that we see proof everywhere. What's so frustrating about atheists is that they seem to refuse to see this proof, but maybe that's not fair. Maybe they really can't see any proof.

If you're an atheist (or theist) what proof do you need?

The problem with using that as "proof" is that it's essentially an argument from ignorance - you see the world in one way and say "God exists" because the world is beautiful, or we exist, etc despite not having any proof or reason to believe that said observations are actually from God and not some other cause. "I don't know why _" [we exist / we have a purpose / morality exists / etc] becomes "_ because God did it" when you have no reason to claim that other than ignorance of what alternative explanations might be.

I personally can't think of evidence that would prove God (Yahweh) true - it would need to explain all the contradictions and false statements in the Bible, the problem of evil, God's evil actions in the OT and his harmful "morality" in the NT (slavery, misogyny, etc), inefficacy of prayer, etc. It would also need to pass all skeptical tests, proving that it wasn't a fraud or a sufficiently advanced alien species or some such possible alternate explanation. Personal revelation is out - it would be a simpler explanation that I just went insane. If everyone saw it, then insanity would be out (highly unlikely that every possible observer is simultaneously insane and sharing a delusion), but I would still need to verify that the observation wasn't a hoax or otherwise false vision or understanding. Every possible type of evidence that I think of has a simpler and more probable explanation than the existence of the specific god Yahweh. I simply don't have a good example of something like "do this or show me this and I will believe".

Nonetheless, a truly omniscient being would be able to prove itself to me quite easily - it would know exactly what evidence to use and how to back it up enough to convince me. Nothing is 100%, so I couldn't be 100% positive (aka gnostic) but I could be as sure of his existence as I am of my brother's, etc.

Better without God, and happier too.
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28-11-2012, 01:08 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(28-11-2012 01:07 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 07:42 PM)kpax Wrote:  I cannot prove to you that God doesn't exist. You cannot prove that God exists. But you can prove how childish, trollish and bad example of being a Christian is.

You guys have fun in this pointless thread.

I love it--I fucking love it better than anything in my debates with atheists--when an atheist claims there is no God and then expects Christians to act like Christians. You depend on us to keep your world working an you know it. A world of atheists would be an unthinkable civilization.
Just keep telling yourself that lie...

Seriously, think about it beyond the religious rhetoric for a minute. Would you really be a whole different person if it was proven that there is no God? Would you just suddenly drop all sense of morality and start stealing, raping, murdering, etc.? Is God really the ONLY thing that keeps your morals in check?

For most people, religion has little to do with their morality. That's just not obvious at first because religions spend so much time preaching morality that it "must" come from them. But that's wrong. Good morality exists because most people have enough brains to realize that we are all better off as a whole and even individually when we treat each other well.

The fact is religion keeps us persecuting homosexuals, forcing rape victims to have their unwanted babies, provides a safe environment for some pedophiles and shields them from real consequences, causes people to be fired for atheism or belonging to the "wrong" religion, encourages acts of terrorism, starts wars, divides people, etc.

Without Christians or any religion, morality would keep on functioning at least as good as it is now and likely far better.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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28-11-2012, 01:09 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(28-11-2012 11:59 AM)Egor Wrote:  For many reasons, I have come to see God as pure consciousness. I don't see Him as a being made up of some kind of particles. That's why I often don't entertain atheists who want physical evidence as proof of God. I think that's similar to someone wanting liquid proof of air. Or a square proof of a circle.

How is pure consciousness possible?

Quote:These same atheists are often unwilling to even consider consciousness as something other than a byproduct of brain chemistry, even though protozoa display consciousness without any neurology whatsoever, and the occurence of esp is an established fact.

Protozoans do not have consciousness.
ESP has not been shown to exist.

The evidence that mind is a function of brain is compelling. Changes to the brain alter the mind.
Quote:The one thing about pure consciousness is that it necessarily must be one of a kind. Though I believe consciousness is the fundamental stuff all stuff is made from, I have no idea of the properties of consciousness--it may not even be accurate or logical to talk about "properties" of consciousness. For instance: Is consciousness orderly? I don't know. "Orderly" applies to physical systems, but the fundamental consciousness is not orderly compared to anything. It is one of a kind, there is nothing it "compares" to. The fundamental consciousness of the universe creates order in its physical systems, but that doesn't mean that it is also orderly. For instance, I can write a story, but I am not made of words.

This is mystical wishful thinking with nothing to give it credence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-11-2012, 04:08 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 06:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  To those who believe in God, no proof is necessary--or perhaps it's just that we see proof everywhere. What's so frustrating about atheists is that they seem to refuse to see this proof, but maybe that's not fair. Maybe they really can't see any proof.

If you're an atheist (or theist) what proof do you need?

I just want proof. That is it. I do not want contradicting evidence, or idiotic claims like those saying the world is only thousands of years old or the world flooded, and the only survivors were an old man and his family who created a boat and put every living species upon it. I do not want hypocritical statements claiming God is love when he blatantly orders the murder of children, infants or innocents or hearing he is just when women or homosexuals are second class citizens. I will not accept ignorance as proof and will not take these wild claims as fact. I just want evidence but when theists push any deity in front of me I can only ask them if they only wish to believe these fairy tales are true rather than wanting the truth.

Even you Egor have questioned your faith and that is what I believe is exactly what every human should do. Nothing should be too sacred to question but when you believe all your answers are God you will never arrive to the right conclusion.

I simply leave mine blank until I'm persuaded to believe such a being exists. So far I've only learned it is more of a want or need of something like that to exist rather than anything else but if you have anything to reveal to us go ahead!

I'm willing to believe but I will not believe blindly.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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