What Proof do Atheists Want?
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25-11-2012, 11:29 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 11:27 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Blame Beelzebub.

Besides, is not every thread here not doomed to death by derailment?
Nope! Some just fall off the front page with nary a response.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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25-11-2012, 11:32 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Touche my friend.

Touche indeed.

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25-11-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 11:27 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 11:20 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Pretty much how this thread was doomed to be from the start.


Blame Beelzebub.

Besides, is not every thread here not doomed to death by derailment?
we have a lot of good threads. usually the threads that get derailed are the facepalm threads.
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25-11-2012, 11:49 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 11:18 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 09:50 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Does it have a beard?
Are unicorns hollow?

I was at my local record store recently and at the register, there is a small tin that says, Unicorn meat. Upon opening it you find inside a stuffed unicorn. Upon further examination, I would say that unicorns are not hollow. Smile
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25-11-2012, 11:51 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Hey Ed, that's a good question.

I think it boils down to what Ghost said: Empirical evidence

There isn't any for God or against God. That being said, you can't prove the metaphysical with the physical and vice versa anyway.

Christians believe because of faith. Not just generic faith either... but a faith in God; however, only Christians can have this type of faith. It is a gift from God (Eph 2:8). So, this gift is undeniable and unrelenting... Christians HAVE to have faith... they have no other choice because it is bestowed to them by God.

This is how the gap is filled and "proves" the metaphysical. This, though, is only for those that have been given it because faith isn't empirical evidence and cannot serve collaterally - meaning, it cannot be passed from one person to another (the gift of faith is specific to that person).

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25-11-2012, 12:24 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 11:49 AM)Irishdize Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 11:18 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Are unicorns hollow?

I was at my local record store recently and at the register, there is a small tin that says, Unicorn meat. Upon opening it you find inside a stuffed unicorn. Upon further examination, I would say that unicorns are not hollow. Smile
Why don't garden-fairies like Seinfeld?

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25-11-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 11:51 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hey Ed, that's a good question.

I think it boils down to what Ghost said: Empirical evidence

There isn't any for God or against God. That being said, you can't prove the metaphysical with the physical and vice versa anyway.

Christians believe because of faith. Not just generic faith either... but a faith in God; however, only Christians can have this type of faith. It is a gift from God (Eph 2:8). So, this gift is undeniable and unrelenting... Christians HAVE to have faith... they have no other choice because it is bestowed to them by God.

This is how the gap is filled and "proves" the metaphysical. This, though, is only for those that have been given it because faith isn't empirical evidence and cannot serve collaterally - meaning, it cannot be passed from one person to another (the gift of faith is specific to that person).

So basically; you only believe it if you already believe it.

Consider

Seems legit.

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25-11-2012, 12:26 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
If God wanted me to believe in him, then safest for him would have been for me never to lose my faith in the first place. 'Cos when I was a kid the thing that led me astray (hur hur) was the fact that nothing *worked*. You'd pray for something and God wouldn't do shit, despite very specifically saying that he would. I never heard a voice in my head (thank fuck, retrospectively). *I was a good little believer*. I was waaay into it. When I started studying science I *loved* how God's world fit together in intricate ways. I loved learning how people had found out his secrets. And then I realised... that the explanations for shit I was getting from *church* were lousy. Completely full of shit compared to the intricate beauty and honesty of the scientific stuff. There was a lot of emphasis on *feelings* and on *trust* and on not digging too deep, and especially on not challenging authority. I hated that. Because I was stupid it took me a long time to trust my own judgement that the clowns who were feeding me this stuff had no clue, but once I did... that was it for God. He went on trial and was found severely wanting.

Now God could have easily done something about that if he wanted to and if he possessed the qualities alleged for the Christian God. Answered a few prayers, picked up the phone occasionally. And you'd expect, if God was on a direct line with the minister, that when he made pronouncements about science related stuff, that'd be *true*. Not vaguely worded ambiguous stuff, but *better data* than even the best physics lab could produce. How come, if God's so hot, his ministers and his church suck so bad? How come his Bible reads like a schizophrenic nightmare horror story - not a manual for life?

But like I said, now that I lost my faith if he tried to pull any of that shit I'd immediately suspect 'malevolent immoral space alien' and go into war mode.
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25-11-2012, 12:38 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 11:51 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Christians believe because of faith. Not just generic faith either... but a faith in God; however, only Christians can have this type of faith. It is a gift from God (Eph 2:8). So, this gift is undeniable and unrelenting... Christians HAVE to have faith... they have no other choice because it is bestowed to them by God.
Huh, so I guess that makes you "chosen" by God? Because he did not give me the gift of faith? Why are you so privileged? Mostly because I was not born into a religious family. And because I was not chosen, I will have to suffer in hell for eternity due to a lack of belief, despite the fact that I have tried to be a good person and help others as the primary goals of my life? Yet a murderer and rapist can just accept your God at the last moment and go to heaven? Yet this is a god I am supposed to respect and worship?

If that's the case, your God sounds pretty petty and childish.
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25-11-2012, 12:41 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2012 01:20 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 11:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 10:57 AM)chandrashakti Wrote:  NOTE: My definition does not require God to be omniscient, omnibenevolent or even self-aware.
Why not call it Fred?

'Cause Bob is more terse and deadly, and backwards it's still Bob. Wink

(25-11-2012 11:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  I may not even need proof. Just some good evidence.

Just show me some good evidence.

I doubt there's any evidence that could convince me. Not only is empirical evidence as much a function of the sensor as it is that which is being measured, it is subject (rightfully) to continual reexamination, reassessment, refinement, and even reinterpretation as technology increases. There's no god to be found there (except maybe in our ever exponentially increasing technology).

A sound logical argument would suffice, I suppose. But while valid arguments certainly exist (an infinite number of them actually), none of them are sound given that they all necessarily depend on premises which are neither self-evident nor incontrovertible. No god to be found there either.

A third option might come from mathematics but only if one is willing to substantially redefine the definition to that which causes awe and inspiration. I am, for example, in awe of the beauty of Euler's identity and how everything pulls together so naturally into one butthole tight equation. But that ain't no god in a traditional sense (well maybe in a Spinozistic sense). ... Of course I am also in awe of the half-man/half-giraffe god that is Usain Bolt.

Without a significant linguisitic redefinition of god, Girly's inherently godless, there's nothing which could persuade me.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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