What Proof do Atheists Want?
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25-11-2012, 01:28 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2012 01:49 PM by tikidoc.)
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 01:21 PM)lucradis Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 01:18 PM)tikidoc Wrote:  And this is a god that you worship? One who is totally arbitrary, and would allow those who live good and just lives to be punished for eternity? Punished only for not being among the chosen? With all due respect, that's insane.
To be fair it is no more insane than the basic Christian beliefs, or mormon, or jewish, or muslim, or well... I guess what you could say is crazy is all a part of the concept.
Actually, I think it is quite a bit more insane. Because at least with the basic Christian (or Jewish or whatever) beliefs, the individual has some influence over their destiny. Yes, there are a ton of contradictions, but the bottom line is that doing what they view as the right thing (holding appropriate beliefs and avoiding sin) will result in mercy from their god. In KC's religion, it is much more arbitrary. God wants you in heaven or to suffer in hell, and there is no way you can change your life to result in salvation. Either you are chosen, or you are screwed. End of story.

ETA, moved this over to the "Ask a Theist" thread, and added a few questions for KC. Sorry to derail.
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25-11-2012, 01:40 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 06:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  To those who believe in God, no proof is necessary--or perhaps it's just that we see proof everywhere. What's so frustrating about atheists is that they seem to refuse to see this proof, but maybe that's not fair. Maybe they really can't see any proof.

If you're an atheist (or theist) what proof do you need?
I've been thinking about this.

I'd probably need a mechanism by which this being interacts with the world. Then it would need to demonstrate itself to scientists of the world.

Then it's thoughts would have to be actually profound, and reveal knowledge about reality that could only be known by it. Such as answers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_uns...athematics these with out difficulty.

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25-11-2012, 01:41 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2012 01:55 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 01:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, I don't want to derail Ed's thread, so come to the Ask a Theist thread if you have more questions.

Hahahahaha .... you funny man. Laughat

(25-11-2012 01:28 PM)tikidoc Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 01:21 PM)lucradis Wrote:  To be fair it is no more insane than the basic Christian beliefs, or mormon, or jewish, or muslim, or well... I guess what you could say is crazy is all a part of the concept.
Actually, I think it is quite a bit more insane. Because at least with the basic Christian (or Jewish or whatever) beliefs, the individual has some influence over their destiny. Yes, there are a ton of contradictions, but the bottom line is that doing what they view as the right thing (holding appropriate beliefs and avoiding sin) will result in mercy from their god. In KC's religion, it is much more arbitrary. God wants you in heaven or to suffer in hell, and there is no way you can change your life to result in salvation. Either you are chosen, or you are screwed. End of story.

KC's Road to Damascus involved overcoming a drug addiction. He effectively uses Calvinism to replace and combat that. His metaphysics is essentially just determinism and nihilism all gussied up in a fancy dress somebody else picked out for hm for the prom and there ain't gonna be no prom, but his use of it seems no more insane to me than a 12-stepper relying on Dr. Bob's higher power.

(25-11-2012 01:40 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 06:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  To those who believe in God, no proof is necessary--or perhaps it's just that we see proof everywhere. What's so frustrating about atheists is that they seem to refuse to see this proof, but maybe that's not fair. Maybe they really can't see any proof.

If you're an atheist (or theist) what proof do you need?
I've been thinking about this.

I'd probably need a mechanism by which this being interacts with the world. Then it would need to demonstrate itself to scientists of the world.

Then it's thoughts would have to be actually profound, and reveal knowledge about reality that could only be known by it. Such as answers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_uns...athematics these with out difficulty.

Wouldn't convince me of God, brother. Might convince me of aliens (10^10 stars in a galaxy, 10^10 galaxies in the universe, 10^100 possibilities for life, if we are alone that would be lottery-winning surprising) or maybe just "Whoa, you math mutant, dude, what's your diet look like? Anything special there?" Ramanujan was an autodidact who made significant contributions to mathematics which came from where? Not his formal training. Came from a goddam math mutant. ... But I am particularly interested in P vs. NP. Big Grin

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25-11-2012, 01:47 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 01:41 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 01:14 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, I don't want to derail Ed's thread, so come to the Ask a Theist thread if you have more questions.

Hahahahaha .... you funny man. Laughat

(25-11-2012 01:28 PM)tikidoc Wrote:  Actually, I think it is quite a bit more insane. Because at least with the basic Christian (or Jewish or whatever) beliefs, the individual has some influence over their destiny. Yes, there are a ton of contradictions, but the bottom line is that doing what they view as the right thing (holding appropriate beliefs and avoiding sin) will result in mercy from their god. In KC's religion, it is much more arbitrary. God wants you in heaven or to suffer in hell, and there is no way you can change your life to result in salvation. Either you are chosen, or you are screwed. End of story.

KC's Road to Damascus involved overcoming a drug addiction. He effectively uses Calvinism to replace and combat that. His metaphysics is essentially just determinism and nihilism all gussied up in a fancy dress somebody else picked out for hm for the prom and there ain't gonna be no prom, but his use of it seems no more insane to me than a 12-stepper relying on Dr. Bob's higher power.


I don't remember him explicitly saying that. I thought he said that he was no longer addicted after the conversion.

However, I think he has replaced one addiction with another. This happens quite often in the recovery community.

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25-11-2012, 01:48 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Your measurement for more insanity is flawed.
Magic underwear is less insane than lack of free will? How so?
Lack of free will is demonstrable, whereas magic underpants is not.

Robots lack free will. I've never heard of an example of functioning magical underwear.

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25-11-2012, 01:52 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 01:48 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Your measurement for more insanity is flawed.
Magic underwear is less insane than lack of free will? How so?
Lack of free will is demonstrable, whereas magic underpants is not.

Robots lack free will. I've never heard of an example of functioning magical underwear.
You can't expect me to believe that you don't have a pair of lucky boxers.

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25-11-2012, 01:55 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
I wear me some boxer briefs old chap. I dislike the freedom of boxers and also the restrictiveness of briefs (as well as the butt bunching) so therefore I have consolidated the things I liked from the two and have chosen thusly.

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25-11-2012, 01:56 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 01:55 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I wear me some boxer briefs old chap. I dislike the freedom of boxers and also the restrictiveness of briefs (as well as the butt bunching) so therefore I have consolidated the things I liked from the two and have chosen thusly.


Me, too - Jockey. But are they magic boxer briefs?

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25-11-2012, 02:01 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 01:48 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Your measurement for more insanity is flawed.
Magic underwear is less insane than lack of free will? How so?
Lack of free will is demonstrable, whereas magic underpants is not.

Robots lack free will. I've never heard of an example of functioning magical underwear.
I guess because one explanation that some have for religion is that it helps to create community and moral behavior (theoretically). But a religion that is based on being chosen or not, and there is nothing an individual can do to change their status seems even more pointless to me than most religions. Which is saying quite a lot. Maybe insane is not the correct word.
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25-11-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(25-11-2012 01:21 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Edit. I've reposted this in the ask a theist thread to prevent derailment.
(25-11-2012 12:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Actually, no.

I'm a Calvinist.

God chooses salvation and damnation. A person can't choose to be a murderer and then repent on his deathbed and go to heaven.

God already chose everyone who is going to heaven and going to hell. Nothing can change that.

And you still worship it? A god that will just as easily send a child to suffer in agony for Eternity as it would a mass murderer. For no reason that the child had any control over?

Your god is not a just god. Or a fair or loving god. It intentionally makes people just to suffer in hell. It's cruel.

It is not a being worth of the worship of any decent human being. It's a monster only deserving of hatred.

Knowing all that how can you still worship it?
This. Kingschosen, if you were among the many who suffered under the communistic dictatorship imposed by Stalin, what would you do? Would you adore Stalin because you, a fortunate member of the USSR, managed to avoid any brutality under his reign? Even while others suffered? Or would you reject Stalin, even though you would be unable to do anything against the man, because he is torturing your fellow human being? So far, this is exactly how it is, and I would in no way trust you during such a time.

And come on, KC. Egor has literally nothing to argue or provide that we have not seen before.

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