What Proof do Atheists Want?
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28-11-2012, 04:18 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
God could materialize right now infront of me.. and I'd still kick his ass.. and that bastard will know why!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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28-11-2012, 06:14 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(28-11-2012 12:59 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  The problem with using that as "proof" is that it's essentially an argument from ignorance - you see the world in one way and say "God exists" because the world is beautiful, or we exist, etc despite not having any proof or reason to believe that said observations are actually from God and not some other cause. "I don't know why _" [we exist / we have a purpose / morality exists / etc] becomes "_ because God did it" when you have no reason to claim that other than ignorance of what alternative explanations might be.

I personally can't think of evidence that would prove God (Yahweh) true - it would need to explain all the contradictions and false statements in the Bible, the problem of evil, God's evil actions in the OT and his harmful "morality" in the NT (slavery, misogyny, etc), inefficacy of prayer, etc. It would also need to pass all skeptical tests, proving that it wasn't a fraud or a sufficiently advanced alien species or some such possible alternate explanation. Personal revelation is out - it would be a simpler explanation that I just went insane. If everyone saw it, then insanity would be out (highly unlikely that every possible observer is simultaneously insane and sharing a delusion), but I would still need to verify that the observation wasn't a hoax or otherwise false vision or understanding. Every possible type of evidence that I think of has a simpler and more probable explanation than the existence of the specific god Yahweh. I simply don't have a good example of something like "do this or show me this and I will believe".

Nonetheless, a truly omniscient being would be able to prove itself to me quite easily - it would know exactly what evidence to use and how to back it up enough to convince me. Nothing is 100%, so I couldn't be 100% positive (aka gnostic) but I could be as sure of his existence as I am of my brother's, etc.

This comes close to my position. But I've learned to simplify it. There is one thing a god could do that would remove all doubt: grant me omniscience. Problem solved.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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28-11-2012, 10:36 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(28-11-2012 11:59 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 11:47 AM)Impulse Wrote:  So you are saying there is too much order in the universe for it and everything in it to have come about by accident. Therefore, there must be a god who created it.

And since there would have to be even more order in such a god for that god to be able to design this ordered universe, how do you explain that god's existence? Consider Do you accept that something that complex could just "be" somehow or do you think there is an infinite regression of creators? Either way, you must accept something just as difficult to fathom as an ordered universe that just came about on its own without a creator.

For many reasons, I have come to see God as pure consciousness. I don't see Him as a being made up of some kind of particles. That's why I often don't entertain atheists who want physical evidence as proof of God. I think that's similar to someone wanting liquid proof of air. Or a square proof of a circle. These same atheists are often unwilling to even consider consciousness as something other than a byproduct of brain chemistry, even though protozoa display consciousness without any neurology whatsoever, and the occurence of esp is an established fact.

The one thing about pure consciousness is that it necessarily must be one of a kind. Though I believe consciousness is the fundamental stuff all stuff is made from, I have no idea of the properties of consciousness--it may not even be accurate or logical to talk about "properties" of consciousness. For instance: Is consciousness orderly? I don't know. "Orderly" applies to physical systems, but the fundamental consciousness is not orderly compared to anything. It is one of a kind, there is nothing it "compares" to. The fundamental consciousness of the universe creates order in its physical systems, but that doesn't mean that it is also orderly. For instance, I can write a story, but I am not made of words.

whooo boy so many false arguments and assertions without proof.

In the beginning.... oh wait, in the first paragraph:

1- "air" Can be liquid, the air as you know it is just the gas state of some of the elements; lower the temp. and increase the presure, you will have liquid "air"; lower the temp further, you will have solid "air". Of course, our atmosphere is mostly nitrogen and oxygen, so easy examples would be liquid oxygen and nitrogen. Liquid nitrogen most commonly seen as smoke effect for stages, liquid oxygen and hydrogen as rocket fuel, and liquid oxygen and nytrogen as cutting tools.

2- you CAN prove a circle using a square. Really easy. Take your test circle, surround it with a perfect square, ie four 90 degrees corners, all sides exact same length(length equal to that of the circle's dia.). Surround the circle so that EACH side of the square, only touch one place on the circle. If you can do this you got yourself a circle. Furthermore, the ratio of the area between the square and the circle AND the area of the circle itself is the SAME, no matter how big the square and circle are, provided the conditions above are met. Tah Dah! circle proven with square!!

3- Some athiests have considered that consciousness is possibly something other than a "byproduct" of brain chemistry, however evidence for consciousness as a result of brain chem. is overwhelming as pointed out by Chas; therefore it is very agreeable, for any rational thinkers to say that it is much more plausible to think of consciousness as a "byproduct" of brain chem. as oposed to smething else.

4- Where's the proof/observation/study of protozoa showing consciousness?

5- Where's the proof/observation/study of ESP?

In the second paragraph:

Some sort of drivel that I would have uttered if I smoked a big ass joint.
To sum up the whole damm thing. God is "pure consciousness" ie. imaginary, can't be seen, can't be touch, nonsubstantial, and a waste of time.
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28-11-2012, 10:48 PM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(28-11-2012 01:12 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 09:12 PM)xieulong Wrote:  I dont need any proof or any test or re-test. Any god at all Zeus, Odin, Thor, Hercules, Gawd; if any of them would simply show up and say hello, I'd be an instant believer. At this point, I'd even take a burning bush.

Hope you find your burning bush.


Thanks for the encouragement buddy!! I didn't find the type of bush that you're, BUT I did find a "different" type of "bush", if you know what I mean Big Grin .
I have to admit, I can understand why believers see proofs/signs of Gawd everywhere.
BEHOLD!!


[Image: dog-ass-jesus.jpg]

I'm sorry, just trollin'
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29-11-2012, 01:30 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
(27-11-2012 11:08 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 10:54 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Believe it or not, Egor used to post some good ideas and arguments. But this current argument... meh. Dodgy

What current argument? I haven't made any argument in this thread. All I asked is what kind of proof you would need in order to believe that some kind of Divine creator exists?

Atheism is irrational. There is no atheist argument. Futhermore, the implications of atheism are horrific and beyond the psychology of the human mind to deal with. Fortunately, atheism is wrong. Only a conscious mind could establish the order required for the universe to exist. The fact that things have to be a certain way prior to the universe existing, that certain parameters have to be met, that certain things have to be true is proof that there is design in the universe. Design proves conscious involvement. Therefore, atheism is irrational. There is no atheist argument.

I love the way atheists will readily accept the existence of dark matter but refuse to believe in a Divine creator of any sort. When will you all learn that this is not about theology or cosmology. It's about psychology. Atheism is false. All that's interesting is why a person would want to hold such delusions. Here are the main reasons:

Homosexuality
Drug use
Narcissism
Oppositionalism
Fornication
Ignorance
Anti-religionism
PTSD
Sexual deviancy

I might be missing a couple of categories, but over the years, these are pretty much the reasons people are atheists. None of it has to do with the existence of God. It's simply that the idea of God often gets in the way of one of these reasons. Undecided

The Christian God may get in the way of these ideas but not all Gods of all religions is against the above activities, take Witchcraft for example since that is the religion I was raised in, It is a very liberal religion which is not against homosexuality, threesomes, fornication, marijuana, booze, nudity and a whole list of other things, Witchcraft was and is a very liberal belief system.

Atheism is lack of belief in all Gods, not just the Christian God. I am an atheistic person. So by your theory I am an atheist because God is against what I want to do and yet I wasnt raised in your religion, in fact I wasnt even exposed to your religion until I was 19.

My reasons are long and varied and I am pretty out of it tonight or Id explain, I usually make LONG posts if you havent noticed but Im just under the weather right now, maybe when I am back to normal. Sad
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29-11-2012, 01:50 AM
RE: What Proof do Atheists Want?
Quote:I love the way atheists will readily accept the existence of dark matter but refuse to believe in a Divine creator of any sort. When will you all learn that this is not about theology or cosmology. It's about psychology. Atheism is false. All that's interesting is why a person would want to hold such delusions. Here are the main reasons:

Homosexuality
Drug use
Narcissism
Oppositionalism
Fornication
Ignorance
Anti-religionism
PTSD
Sexual deviancy

I might be missing a couple of categories, but over the years, these are pretty much the reasons people are atheists. None of it has to do with the existence of God. It's simply that the idea of God often gets in the way of one of these reasons. Undecided

You forgot a taste for the flesh of human babies. I really doubt many people are atheists just to be rebellious, or because they are sexual deviants. It all comes down to evidence. There is no evidence for the supernatural, so it's foolish to assume it exists. Has nothing to do with being angry with god because he made you gay or rebelling against your parents.

People accept things like dark matter because, while they haven't been observed directly, they affect other things and make sense in context. On the hand, God is not necessary for a scientific concept of the universe.
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