What Proof do Theists Want?
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27-11-2012, 06:13 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(27-11-2012 05:55 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Fst.

I cannot. And that is the point.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Exactly but you could offer a logical argument that it is highly unlikely.

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27-11-2012, 06:14 PM
 
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(27-11-2012 03:39 PM)lucradis Wrote:  In response to Egors post asking what proof atheists would require for the belief in a god.

I'm curious as to what proof would be sufficient to prove the lack of a god. Maybe just the god they believe in, maybe in another I don't know.

To me, I can't say there is no god whatsoever, but it seems as though given sufficient time humans seem to kick their gods to the curb which in itself seems to be good evidence of the likelihood that the current generation of cool hip happening gods are made up.

The invention of writing and the higher occurrence of literacy has helped the life span of some religions obviously as it has allowed them to spread the stories further across time before they are forgotten and the newer explanations are accepted as the norm.

Anyway, what would discredit the existence of your god in your eyes?

Again, I am not saying they don't exist even though I don't find it probable that they do, I'm just wondering if there is anything that would make you stop believing? And if there is nothing, then how much credibility does that give your religious belief?

For me, it would have to be the disappearance of the observer I perceive in my consciousness. This “observer” was there when I was knocked unconscious during a fall while ice climbing. It was there today when the dentist was working on my teeth with a drill. It has always been there. And now that I’m buzzing on Lortab, it is still there. It is always present, and I know it’s not me. If that were to disappear, I would stop believing in God. Bowing
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27-11-2012, 06:19 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2012 06:24 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
A book authored by Middle Eastern desert sheperds with 2000 year old contradictory text describing simplistic metaphysics in a method that makes it seem like a complicated prophecy laid out about some arbitrary divine Jew zombie who dies in order to, somehow, appease all the sins of every individual on the planet so that they are not punished by the very creator of the benevolently eternal torturous punishment to begin with.

At least, that seems to be the only proof they ever need.

Egor, it is far more likely that you are suffering from a psychological illness rather than an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being watching your hard-on grow due to your blovel indulgence.

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27-11-2012, 06:22 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2012 06:30 PM by Leela.)
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
No clue, why I am posting here.


EDIT: ah yes... I remember... Egor needs the observer in his concsiosness gone... What about that > therapy and medication

I think I am still continuing to rage... From that rage I put on the other night... But everytime I read comments like that, the rage comes back.

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27-11-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
Ghost: I wrote this long thing but then I lost my way because it was too long and I'm in a room full of people all talking at me, so I erased that shit.

Empirical evidence only applies to a belief based off of empirical evidence. Faith isn't based off of empirical evidence so I highly doubt empirical evidence would shake a believers foundation.

DLJ: I personally agree.

Egor: Thank you for answering, especially with such an honest albeit crazy answer. Being in the mental health business doesn't something like this worry you or set off alarms? I hope you aren't crazy.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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27-11-2012, 06:54 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
What I had was curiosity. I needed to know how things happened and why.

I needed a direct chain of causation to understand things. Randomly inserting supernatural elements to me was a way of saying I don't feel like explaining it.

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27-11-2012, 07:10 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
Hey, Fst.

I don't know that I could. And even if I could, I can't imagine that it would qualify as the proof that a Theist was looking for.

Hey, Lucradis.

Thanks for trying to respond to me amidst so many distractions Cool

I agree. Faith isn't based on empirical evidence. It's basically based on trust. Some person had a revelatory experience, they turned around and asked others to trust that it was true and they did. Or, in many cases, people just see the world through lenses other than the coke-bottle horn-rims of science. But I doubt that any Atheist could get God to convince a Theist that he doesn't exist through revelation for obvious reason too numerous to count.

But if science could demonstrate unequivocally that the universe was such that it made the existence of the supernatural an absolute impossibility, or something equally dramatic and ground shaking, only the greatest feats of cognitive dissonance would allow a Theist to escape with their faith intact. This is why I said empirical evidence would be the kind of PROOF that they would accept (which is vastly different than saying it's the argument they'd accept; because one could use their influence to convince anyone of anything given the right circumstances). Unfortunately, science cannot demonstrate unequivocally that the universe is such that the supernatural is an absolute impossibility. It can't even prove naturalism. For that matter, it can't even comment on the non-natural. So the proof that they would accept, in reality, does not exist and never will.

This is why I mirrored my response from the what proof Atheists want thread. Because the empirical evidence of God that would convince an Atheist of his existence doesn't exist either.

So the whole proof thing is a red herring. Both sides want it, neither will ever get it. As Orwell said, the war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be ongoing. The only thing that both sides can do is argue with each other and hope that someone from the other team swallows it whole and converts because in this fight, there is no proof; only arguments.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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27-11-2012, 08:52 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
I guess, for me, it would need to be something equal or greater than my experience during my conversion.

I guess there isn't a concrete "thing" that would change me... but, for me to change, it would have to be completely enlightening and stunning... life changing... just like it was for my conversion.

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27-11-2012, 09:16 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2012 09:22 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(27-11-2012 08:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I guess, for me, it would need to be something equal or greater than my experience during my conversion.

I guess there isn't a concrete "thing" that would change me... but, for me to change, it would have to be completely enlightening and stunning... life changing... just like it was for my conversion.

It was Nietzsche, Sartre, and Camus for me brother, some 35 years ago now. With a little Kafka, Borges, and Bertrand Russell thrown in for good measure. It was completely enlightening and stunning ... life changing. You're just reading the wrong books. Big Grin

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27-11-2012, 09:48 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
I think the question is flawed. Theists tend to put great stock in faith, which means they believe without evidence. And since you can't prove an entity's nonexistence, there is nothing in the world you could show any theist and guarantee deconversion.

On the other hand, I'd say the main reason theists become atheists is due to a shift in what they value: evidence rather than faith. But for the faithful, I doubt evidence would be valued. However, I think exposure to other points of view, reading books, etc. could contribute to someone changing the way they put value on things like faith.
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