What Proof do Theists Want?
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28-11-2012, 05:57 PM (This post was last modified: 28-11-2012 06:09 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(28-11-2012 12:56 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(27-11-2012 06:34 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Egor: Thank you for answering, especially with such an honest albeit crazy answer. Being in the mental health business doesn't something like this worry you or set off alarms? I hope you aren't crazy.

Whatever. If you don't sense an observer in your consciousness, then I pity you. You're nothing more than an animal. It's no wonder you're an atheist.
"And you say, ‘All you’ve said up to now makes me fairly sympathetic to this intellectually.
But I don’t really feel it.
What must I do to feel it really?’ My answer to you is this: you ask me that question because you don’t want to feel it really.
You’re frightened of it." - Alan Watts


I don't really think theists understand what it is like to understand reality for what it is, and not what you want it to be.

It's hard for them to connect to the awe and wonder we have for knowing reality. To attach positive emotions to the scientific method, being incorrect, a part of nature, or to live a moral life in shades of grey.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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28-11-2012, 06:06 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(28-11-2012 05:57 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(28-11-2012 12:56 AM)Egor Wrote:  Whatever. If you don't sense an observer in your consciousness, then I pity you. You're nothing more than an animal. It's no wonder you're an atheist.
"And you say, ‘All you’ve said up to now makes me fairly sympathetic to
this intellectually. But I don’t really feel it. What must I do to feel
it really?’ My answer to you is this: you ask me that question because you don’t want to feel it really. You’re frightened of it." - Alan Watts


I don't really think theists understand what it is like to understand reality for what it is, and not what you want it to be.

It's hard for them to connect to the awe and wonder we have for knowing reality. To attach positive emotions to the scientific method, being incorrect, a part of nature, or to live a moral life in shades of grey.
Well said. Thumbsup
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28-11-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(28-11-2012 03:01 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I've been waiting for months and you have given me zero material to work with.

The fact that you take everything I say to = zero is exactly why I stop talking to you.
I can tell you have a bitter taste in your mouth for Theists. The smell of this is heavy from your conversations. You do a good job of bringing your dislike into conversations with myself in regard to this issue.

Vosur, I am well aware that I have left questions unanswered or started conversations and not finished them.
I don't shy away from that reality.
One thing that YOU don't understand is that there is in fact material from myself that I have touched up on as far as philosophical arguments regarding the existence of God. You call it "zero".
Since you call what I say "zero", then I cannot talk or reason with you Vosur. Even the very words I am typing right now will be overlooked and misunderstood by you. I'm not sure what kind of person you are in real life, but from the conversations we continue to have, I'm starting to think you're not a very pleasant person overall.
You and I would not get along in person. I can bet money on that.

I am 100% sure that if I gave the best and most detailed philosophical explanations, arguments and points to show the logical stance of Gods existence, you would close your mind at the very first word and continue to read everything based on a close-minded perspective. You sir, are the very Atheistic mindset that I avoid. I'm sure you get tired of ridiculous Theists that are so very biased, belligerent and close-minded. I too have no patience for the Atheist that keeps shutting down everything I say as if they have a superiority to their being because of one simple difference in belief.

As I said before, I may or may not go into further explanation of why I believe God exists. As far as my conversations go with you - If I do this, I will absolutely ignore you. There are far better, more civilized and respectful Atheists on this Forum than you.
I don't need your put downs on my explanations.
I don't need your sarcastic snide comments about something I take serious.
I don't need you to feel it's necessary to school me as though I'm incapable of irrational thought myself.
I don't need you to correct what I say in another comment to make a funny because I'm that Theist you love to bully.

I know that you heckle me about giving explanations or evidence for Gods existence because you want to show the superiority of Atheism. I admire that some here at least humor me if anything in order to make me feel as though they are learning something from me and I from them.
That is all I am here for. Why on earth would I want to come to this forum so I could see you put down my arguments or beliefs? That's absurd.



(28-11-2012 03:01 PM)Vosur Wrote:  We've been over this already. I don't expect a short answer from you, I expect an answer from you at all. I don't care about it's length, I care about it's content and validity. It's been several months since I opened the "Compelling evidence for Christianity" thread and as of today, you have contributed nothing to it. Zero. Nada. Niets. Last time you responded, you suggested that you were thinking about posting your reply on your blog instead. I said it's fine with me as long as you publish it somewhere. As far as I can see, your blog also does not contain any material on the topic to work with. I'm starting to grow tired of your excuses. The fact that I've been waiting this long should give a clue as to why I'm not asking you to give me a "quick and short answer that is satisfactory enough".

Here's the fact of the matter real short and simple Vosur - You will never - ever - ever - accept any answer from me as to be valid, so long as it concludes to the existence of God becoming more logical.

Period.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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28-11-2012, 08:43 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
No offense ideasonscribe, but your arguments in all of those threads really came down to you referring to your belief as an inference of things based off of you thinking that lack of proof of things, or that unknowns and your observations seem to infer an intelligent/intelligence or intent in the universe and it's existence.

You can argue that all day, but you yourself said it isn't "proof" but is to you an evidence. No one is going to accept that answer because you are using an inference upon your own observation which still at the end of the day has no solid "proof" and only an inference to something you feel makes sense to you. We are skeptics here. We will criticize, tear apart and pick apart things all day long to make sure they are sound and coincide with things.

In short: we care more about what is true, than what sounds good to us. Your reason for believing seems to have a mixture of things that have a "philosophical reason" to believe, or the causation clause, but still have nothing other than that.

At the end of the day, philosophical reasoning, or inferring something appears to have an intelligence behind it still does not necessarily mean it has one.

So you are correct, most of us will never ever ever accept that to be valid, because it is indeed an argument from ignorance. It doesn't mean you are "ignorant" as a human being, it simply means you are taking something and going "how great is this? it's so amazing and these things seem to add up (to me) and make sense (to me) and appear (to me) to have an intelligence, it makes logical sense. Therefore god."

It seems you are taking this far too personally. If you are offended by the opinions of atheists, the critique, the manner in which you are criticized and logically argued with, then perhaps you are in the wrong place. This is not a place for us to "teach those stupid theists" - you came here. To an atheist forum, full of atheists, as a theist or deist or whatever position you may reconcile yourself with. Do not be surprised that you receive harsh opinions and debate.
That said, even though you probably (still) don't remember me, I did enjoy the few conversations we had over skype. You're a nice guy and I can tell that you get rather annoyed with some of the critique you receive from people (and people seemed to love to bombard you with stuff, so I can't blame you).

So either you are here because you feel you "want to teach us something", or you want to learn something about yourself and your beliefs, or you want to know more about atheists. I can't think of any other reasons a theist would join here unless you have other reasons. But again, people here can be blunt, very edged on their points. Do not take it personally as it is not directed to be personal at you, but the belief and the things we hear on a very regular basis.
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29-11-2012, 12:08 AM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(28-11-2012 06:34 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(28-11-2012 03:01 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I've been waiting for months and you have given me zero material to work with.


The fact that you take everything I say to = zero is exactly why I stop talking to you.
I can tell you have a bitter taste in your mouth for Theists. The smell of this is heavy from your conversations. You do a good job of bringing your dislike into conversations with myself in regard to this issue.

Vosur, I am well aware that I have left questions unanswered or started conversations and not finished them.
I don't shy away from that reality.
One thing that YOU don't understand is that there is in fact material from myself that I have touched up on as far as philosophical arguments regarding the existence of God. You call it "zero".
Since you call what I say "zero", then I cannot talk or reason with you Vosur. Even the very words I am typing right now will be overlooked and misunderstood by you. I'm not sure what kind of person you are in real life, but from the conversations we continue to have, I'm starting to think you're not a very pleasant person overall.
You and I would not get along in person. I can bet money on that.

I am 100% sure that if I gave the best and most detailed philosophical explanations, arguments and points to show the logical stance of Gods existence, you would close your mind at the very first word and continue to read everything based on a close-minded perspective. You sir, are the very Atheistic mindset that I avoid. I'm sure you get tired of ridiculous Theists that are so very biased, belligerent and close-minded. I too have no patience for the Atheist that keeps shutting down everything I say as if they have a superiority to their being because of one simple difference in belief.

As I said before, I may or may not go into further explanation of why I believe God exists. As far as my conversations go with you - If I do this, I will absolutely ignore you. There are far better, more civilized and respectful Atheists on this Forum than you.
I don't need your put downs on my explanations.
I don't need your sarcastic snide comments about something I take serious.
I don't need you to feel it's necessary to school me as though I'm incapable of irrational thought myself.
I don't need you to correct what I say in another comment to make a funny because I'm that Theist you love to bully.

I know that you heckle me about giving explanations or evidence for Gods existence because you want to show the superiority of Atheism. I admire that some here at least humor me if anything in order to make me feel as though they are learning something from me and I from them.
That is all I am here for. Why on earth would I want to come to this forum so I could see you put down my arguments or beliefs? That's absurd.



(28-11-2012 03:01 PM)Vosur Wrote:  We've been over this already. I don't expect a short answer from you, I expect an answer from you at all. I don't care about it's length, I care about it's content and validity. It's been several months since I opened the "Compelling evidence for Christianity" thread and as of today, you have contributed nothing to it. Zero. Nada. Niets. Last time you responded, you suggested that you were thinking about posting your reply on your blog instead. I said it's fine with me as long as you publish it somewhere. As far as I can see, your blog also does not contain any material on the topic to work with. I'm starting to grow tired of your excuses. The fact that I've been waiting this long should give a clue as to why I'm not asking you to give me a "quick and short answer that is satisfactory enough".


Here's the fact of the matter real short and simple Vosur - You will never - ever - ever - accept any answer from me as to be valid, so long as it concludes to the existence of God becoming more logical.

Period.


As I see it, I would have to abandon logic in order to believe in god(s). Explain as simply and concisely as possible how a belief in god can be logical in any way. Keep in mind that I am the type of person that does not believe in ghosts, yet I watch ghost hunters as often as possible. The people on the show also seem to not believe in ghosts, so they actually investigate. I know that they could probably prove or disprove ghosts pretty quick if allowed to spend as much money as they need to when they need to, but I understand that it would end the show and it would be against their interests to do so. If you are unwilling to hear a response from others about your idea of god existing being logical, then don't bother responding to this. I have talked to many christians who are open minded that are willing to admit when something has a natural cause. They are also willing to admit that the bible is not to be taken literally. Funny how they seem more open minded than you.
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29-11-2012, 09:12 AM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2012 09:24 AM by Vosur.)
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(28-11-2012 06:34 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  The fact that you take everything I say to = zero is exactly why I stop talking to you.
I can tell you have a bitter taste in your mouth for Theists. The smell of this is heavy from your conversations. You do a good job of bringing your dislike into conversations with myself in regard to this issue.

Vosur, I am well aware that I have left questions unanswered or started conversations and not finished them.
I don't shy away from that reality.
One thing that YOU don't understand is that there is in fact material from myself that I have touched up on as far as philosophical arguments regarding the existence of God. You call it "zero".
Since you call what I say "zero", then I cannot talk or reason with you Vosur. Even the very words I am typing right now will be overlooked and misunderstood by you. I'm not sure what kind of person you are in real life, but from the conversations we continue to have, I'm starting to think you're not a very pleasant person overall.
You and I would not get along in person. I can bet money on that.

I am 100% sure that if I gave the best and most detailed philosophical explanations, arguments and points to show the logical stance of Gods existence, you would close your mind at the very first word and continue to read everything based on a close-minded perspective. You sir, are the very Atheistic mindset that I avoid. I'm sure you get tired of ridiculous Theists that are so very biased, belligerent and close-minded. I too have no patience for the Atheist that keeps shutting down everything I say as if they have a superiority to their being because of one simple difference in belief.

As I said before, I may or may not go into further explanation of why I believe God exists. As far as my conversations go with you - If I do this, I will absolutely ignore you. There are far better, more civilized and respectful Atheists on this Forum than you.
I don't need your put downs on my explanations.
I don't need your sarcastic snide comments about something I take serious.
I don't need you to feel it's necessary to school me as though I'm incapable of irrational thought myself.
I don't need you to correct what I say in another comment to make a funny because I'm that Theist you love to bully.

I know that you heckle me about giving explanations or evidence for Gods existence because you want to show the superiority of Atheism. I admire that some here at least humor me if anything in order to make me feel as though they are learning something from me and I from them.
That is all I am here for. Why on earth would I want to come to this forum so I could see you put down my arguments or beliefs? That's absurd.
It's a real pity that you are so intellectually dishonest that you keep twisting my words in order to victimize yourself to such an extent. If you had read my post carefully, you'd have noticed that when I claimed that you have given me zero material to work with, I was talking specifically about the thread "Compelling evidence for Christianity". It is also interesting to note that you portray yourself as the one having the moral high ground when you're the one attacking me on a personal level while making unsupported assertions about my character. Your claim that I would be close-minded towards arguments supporting the existence of god is rather weak, considering that I've spent the last few months watching debates, debating myself and pointing out the logical flaws in the arguments that have been shown to me. You can continue lying and making excuses for months in order to avoid ever having to address the issue at hand, it doesn't bother me in the least. Within several months, you have not even attempted, despite claiming repeatedly that you were going to do so, to name any compelling evidence for Christianity. What a shame. It would be laughing at this, were it not so sad.

(28-11-2012 06:34 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Here's the fact of the matter real short and simple Vosur - You will never - ever - ever - accept any answer from me as to be valid, so long as it concludes to the existence of God becoming more logical.

Period.
Since you have never presented me with an argument to support the claim that god's existence is more logical than his non-existence, I can safely say that this assertion is unsupported.

(28-11-2012 08:43 PM)Logisch Wrote:  It seems you are taking this far too personally. If you are offended by the opinions of atheists, the critique, the manner in which you are criticized and logically argued with, then perhaps you are in the wrong place. This is not a place for us to "teach those stupid theists" - you came here. To an atheist forum, full of atheists, as a theist or deist or whatever position you may reconcile yourself with. Do not be surprised that you receive harsh opinions and debate.
Well said. Yes
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29-11-2012, 12:05 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(28-11-2012 06:34 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  One thing that YOU don't understand is that there is in fact material from myself that I have touched up on as far as philosophical arguments regarding the existence of God. You call it "zero". Since you call what I say "zero", then I cannot talk or reason with you Vosur.

I am 100% sure that if I gave the best and most detailed philosophical explanations, arguments and points to show the logical stance of Gods existence, you would close your mind at the very first word and continue to read everything based on a close-minded perspective.

Here's the fact of the matter real short and simple Vosur - You will never - ever - ever - accept any answer from me as to be valid, so long as it concludes to the existence of God becoming more logical.
I'm sorry you feel like you've been disregarded. Regardless of the tone people take with you, most of us are interested in your ideas. Please remember, though, that all the philosophical and logical arguments for god (that I've seen, at least) have been shown to have logical fallacies in them. I'm guessing that your arguments were ones that have already been shown to be flawed. I'm always open to a new philosophy or line of logical reasoning in defense of god, but they usually end up follow one of the following paths:

1. We don't know the answer, therefore god (god of the gaps);
2. It 'has' to be god, and it 'has' to be my particular god (confirmation bias);
3. Idea 'a' is, of course, impossible, but 'god' is not impossible (special pleading);
4. Nothing can simply exist without a creator... but god can (special pleading);

I think I speak for most of us when I say if you've got an awesome argument for god, please share it. And don't mind the criticism... this isn't a popularity contest. Even the atheists go after each others ideas... just read the last few pages of "Who was St. Paul" for evidence of that!

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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29-11-2012, 02:16 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
It's part of the human experience to imagine what could be. When we look out into the dark of night we can imagine what might be waiting for us. It's this ability that can cause us to create delusions. As long as we can delude ourselves there will be gods and monsters in the closet or under the bed

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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29-11-2012, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2012 06:05 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(29-11-2012 12:05 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Regardless of the tone people take with you, most of us are interested in your ideas.
I no longer have an interest in Ideaonscribe's unsubstantiated claims, lack of evidence, and intellectual dishonesty. In the multiple debates he has taken part in, he has yet to return with any of the evidence he has said to have possessed. He's had months, approaching half a year, to provide any substance that is worth researching. His rhetoric is designed as if he were the victim, he has lied to us multiple times, and has nothing but special pleading to support his reasoning. Instead of following through with the debate, admitting he was wrong or that he lacks any credible proof for his position, he deflects any possible criticism as though he believes it is impossible to be wrong.

Learn to debate, Ideaonscribe. You seem like relatively enjoyable company outside of debate, but that does not negate the sentiment I have towards you or your arguments.

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29-11-2012, 06:18 PM
RE: What Proof do Theists Want?
(27-11-2012 05:55 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Fst.

I cannot. And that is the point.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
But, see? That's the thing. Why would you try to set the bar where it can't be reached? Wouldn't you want the answer one way or the other?

Of course I'm being a bit rhetorical. I know several reasons why people would want to make God un-disprovable. If He is a part of a person's identity or self-image, then that person would not want to make it possible to remove God from that. If God took away a person's fear or death or his/her sense of helplessness, that person would not want to allow God to be disproven. I don't know the answer in your specific case, but I'll tell you how I feel about this question: I want to know the truth. It frustrates me when I can't find the answer to a question, and I can't even imagine not caring about having my questions answered.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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