What about the Devil?
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12-08-2016, 06:24 PM
RE: What about the Devil?
(12-08-2016 11:45 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  When god wants to send a message he dose this.
[Image: enhanced-buzz-30592-1364579213-17.jpg]

Wait, really? How are we sure that one wasn't the devil too?

I mean think about it, the devil tempts thousands or millions of people into the literal sin of idol-worshiping, and for the extra insult value he gets them to worship TOAST.
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12-08-2016, 11:01 PM
RE: What about the Devil?
(12-08-2016 02:40 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(12-08-2016 02:15 PM)cactus Wrote:  Isn't the character known as "The Devil" a Christian invention? Jews never established such a concept in their canon, did they?

The Devil, as characterized by Christians did not come from Judaism. Our concept of Satan is an angel acting entirely under the authority of G-d.
Correct me if wrong, but there's no instance in Judaism's teachings where Satan explicitly disobeys God? Even in Job, he continues, as you said, to act entirely under the authority granted to him.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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12-08-2016, 11:04 PM
RE: What about the Devil?
(12-08-2016 11:01 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(12-08-2016 02:40 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The Devil, as characterized by Christians did not come from Judaism. Our concept of Satan is an angel acting entirely under the authority of G-d.
Correct me if wrong, but there's no instance in Judaism's teachings where Satan explicitly disobeys God? Even in Job, he continues, as you said, to act entirely under the authority granted to him.

I'm unaware of any instance in in the Jewish scriptures where Satan acts outside of G-d's authority.
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13-08-2016, 06:01 AM
RE: What about the Devil?
I would say each name describes a different entity.

Lucifer - from the Latin (Lucem Ferre - bring to light)
Or bringer of light. Also associated with the morning star, which if I'm correct, is actually the planet Venus.
Bringing things to light, uncovering the truth, exposing lies. This nature of uncovering and exposing also tied with Venus adds a sexual aspect to Lucifer.

Satan is an adversary, a prosecuting angel who operates with God in deciding certain matters.

Devil - this would be the demonized version that is evil and resides in hell.

( just my two cents )

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-08-2016, 09:33 AM
RE: What about the Devil?
(12-08-2016 06:24 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(12-08-2016 11:45 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  When god wants to send a message he dose this.
[Image: enhanced-buzz-30592-1364579213-17.jpg]

Wait, really? How are we sure that one wasn't the devil too?

I mean think about it, the devil tempts thousands or millions of people into the literal sin of idol-worshiping, and for the extra insult value he gets them to worship TOAST.

That son of a bitch. Probably pulled that off when God was helping Matthew Mcconaughey get his Academy Award.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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13-08-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: What about the Devil?
(12-08-2016 11:01 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(12-08-2016 02:40 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The Devil, as characterized by Christians did not come from Judaism. Our concept of Satan is an angel acting entirely under the authority of G-d.
Correct me if wrong, but there's no instance in Judaism's teachings where Satan explicitly disobeys God? Even in Job, he continues, as you said, to act entirely under the authority granted to him.

Most of the portral of satan the fire and pitch forks guy was mostly "fan fiction". Books like Paradise Lost, and Dante's Inferno, expaned on the small bits that appear in the bible and artist of the time ate it up. Creating mocab paintings to really scare the believers. Plus they know the Churchs were the ones with the money so if you want to get paid painting you have to go where the money is.

The devil in his 2 appearances (No the snake was not satan) doesn't even have a description of himself. He's mostly a disembodied voice. The first time he shows up he makes a bet with God, the second he trys to convince Jesus to rule earth. Which he is going to do anyway so why he didn't speed up the process I don't know.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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13-08-2016, 11:07 AM
RE: What about the Devil?
When you think about it, christianity is a bunch of mental cosplayers obsessed with fan fiction.

They just don't dress up.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-08-2016, 11:25 AM
RE: What about the Devil?
(13-08-2016 11:07 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  When you think about it, christianity is a bunch of mental cosplayers obsessed with fan fiction.

They just don't dress up.

Don't they?

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[Image: pope-benedict-xvi-shutterstock-featured-w740x493.jpg]

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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14-08-2016, 05:44 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2016 05:49 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: What about the Devil?
(12-08-2016 11:45 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  I've brought this topic up a couple of times with friends. Only to get scoffs or off topic answers. I present to them what I hope to be thought prevoicing questions, that usally pertain to the arch nemisis of their god.

[Image: d62e5fa849f06b3ba1d0e86caa72e4c2.jpg]

So the devil is the worst of the worst. A constant thorn in God's side. Sent him to the furthest reaches of the supernatural world and called it hell. But somehow can still get to earth to cause problems for god's creations. He can posses people, fuel sins, and make teenagers kill cats in grave yards.

So is Satan able to deceive or outsmart god? Does that make him smarter then an omniscient being?
Is Satan more powerful then god? God couldn't destroy him after all. All he could do was banish him. This would put a limet of gods powers wouldn't it? He has little problems killing his most loved creations (humans) but the devil gets a slide.

Did god lack the foresight that Lucifer would reject him at some point?
Or maybe he did know the problems that he would do, and just thought it would be funny, or fun to let him get away with it.

I've been even been told that god put Satan in heal because he need someone to punish the wicked souls.
So that would Satan a lackey, just following orders. Caring out a job God doesn't have the stomach for.

If Satan was such an opposite of god and can posses people and the like. Wouldn't we see more of him really going to town. Passing out the information that god wouldn't want us to know. Like how to grow knowledge trees. Or if people were total assholes to gods teams would he reward them. Not torture them for all iirtnaty? "Hey good job, i hate that guy."

When god wants to send a message he dose this.
[Image: enhanced-buzz-30592-1364579213-17.jpg]

When the devil dose. He dose stuff like this.
[Image: tumblr_nihf0heMhQ1rp0vkjo1_500.gif]

I think the second one sends a much clearer message. Little left open for interpretation.

I've also been told. That god is going to get around to it. Destroying the devil and hell. Eventually.

EVENTUALLY? What's holding him back?

"Well he dosn't want to take away freewill."

Satan is aware of his existence and he still gets to deny obedience to god. Why don't we get the same courtesy? Instead we have to listen to people interpretations of him. People that claim to know his thoughts, feelings and desires.

The mind set of most believers is Good is Good, and bad is bad. But if good dose a bad action is that then bad, or is the bad action good because good did the action. If that's so, then the devil must be good because God only dose good things. He runs on his own set of rules. And the devil has seemed to find a way around them.


All in all the whole thing is bullshit. The self contrody cannon has created a ridiculous battle over people's "souls". Should the Devil be real he too would be a god. Most Xtians will deny they have a polytheistic religion. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit = 1 god) But then the Devil would have to be included since he would have the same power set if not stronger then the god they claim.

So what's the goal of this thought experiment. I used to say it because I wanted them to get flustered and leave me alone. But know I say it because I want people really think about the idea that they've created or this unseen battle between good and evil. How ridiculous this idea is. because if these concepts were real who gets the blame. The attack dog trained for pit fitting, or the master that let it off its leash?

I was thinking how the idea of Satan in Christianity blows the free will argument for god's inaction out of the water.

Why wouldn't Satan come down like a space alien and land on the Whitehouse lawn, provide cures for the diseases of the world, show evidence that he is in charge of hell and there will be nothing but infinite partying if you go to hell in the afterlife since hell is his domain.

He wouldn't need to rely on ancient texts, feelings, or burnt toast, he would simply reveal himself to be real to everyone, something god will not, or could not do.

I would think Satan could say god is inferior to him and that's why he won't show himself.

How can the apologist explain away Satan's divine hiddenness? Why would Satan give a damn about your free will?

This is essentially what happened in Childhood's End.

There is simply no reason for Satan to play by god's rules.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-08-2016, 06:04 AM
RE: What about the Devil?
I think the only thing more pathetic than an invisible friend is an invisible enemy. That gives me no pleasure saying that since there are many christians I love deeply.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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