What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
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09-02-2015, 08:07 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 09:30 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Let me ask you this. Do you think you are the thinker of your thoughts? Or do see that thoughts just happen, and you are only aware of them?

I think I may have an inkling of what you are trying to say. I often use a light form of meditation to get to sleep quickly and one of the "tricks" I've learned is to stop reacting to thoughts and instead to just (mentally) step back watching and listening to various thoughts but letting them pass without focusing on any of them. It feels like I am disassociating "me" from my brain so that I can get some sleep without it keeping me up all night. Big Grin

Does that sound like it even approaches what you've been trying to describe? If so, I don't see any reason to think that it means much. The "self" that I am most aware of is the high-level conciousness that is processing the thoughts that are arising from my brain but those thoughts are just as much a part of "me". I'm not aware of where or how they are formed but I liken that to the idea that I'm not (usually) aware of how digestion is progressing or how the oxygen is diffusing from the blood into the other tissues.

My splitting "me" from "my brain" is just a mental trick I've found to help me get to sleep faster. It doesn't hint at any deeper self or provide any way for the universe to know itself...

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09-02-2015, 09:15 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 09:44 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 09:10 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  If you're just an appearance in consciousness, then do you die every time you go to sleep at night?

Yeah, so? What's your point?

If your sense of a continuous 'self' that is merely an appearance in consciousness dies (or disappears) every night, but yet you remain aware, then can your true nature really be that 'self'? Is there something more fundamental, an always present constant, that is with you, regardless of what stage of sleep you are in, or what thoughts are appearing?

This something that I'm pointing to is, the sense of "I know that I am." It is there regardless of the appearances in consciousness, in fact, is it what the appearances in consciousness arise from. You are that, the source of the appearances in consciousness.

You know that this sense of 'self' that has been dissolved so many times for you is obviously a false assumption predicated by a lifetime of habitual responses and experiences. So knowing that it is false, why is there no inclination to find out what you truly are?
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09-02-2015, 09:21 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(09-02-2015 09:15 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 09:44 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah, so? What's your point?

If your sense of a continuous 'self' that is merely an appearance in consciousness dies (or disappears) every night, but yet you remain aware, then can your true nature really be that 'self'? Is there something more fundamental, an always present constant, that is with you, regardless of what stage of sleep you are in, or what thoughts are appearing?

This something that I'm pointing to is, the sense of "I know that I am." It is there regardless of the appearances in consciousness, in fact, is it what the appearances in consciousness arise from. You are that, the source of the appearances in consciousness.

You know that this sense of 'self' that has been dissolved so many times for you is obviously a false assumption predicated by a lifetime of habitual responses and experiences. So knowing that it is false, why is there no inclination to find out what you truly are?

It is not a false assumption. Our awareness disappears when we are unconscious regardless of your continued assertions that it doesn't.

Shall we anaesthetize you and see how aware you are as we dismember you? Consider

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09-02-2015, 09:45 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(09-02-2015 09:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 09:15 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  If your sense of a continuous 'self' that is merely an appearance in consciousness dies (or disappears) every night, but yet you remain aware, then can your true nature really be that 'self'? Is there something more fundamental, an always present constant, that is with you, regardless of what stage of sleep you are in, or what thoughts are appearing?

This something that I'm pointing to is, the sense of "I know that I am." It is there regardless of the appearances in consciousness, in fact, is it what the appearances in consciousness arise from. You are that, the source of the appearances in consciousness.

You know that this sense of 'self' that has been dissolved so many times for you is obviously a false assumption predicated by a lifetime of habitual responses and experiences. So knowing that it is false, why is there no inclination to find out what you truly are?

It is not a false assumption. Our awareness disappears when we are unconscious regardless of your continued assertions that it doesn't.

Shall we anaesthetize you and see how aware you are as we dismember you? Consider

I've had a couple of fairly major surgeries, I wasn't aware during either and I'm very happy about that. It would have been unpleasant.
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09-02-2015, 09:52 AM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2015 09:57 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(09-02-2015 09:45 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 09:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is not a false assumption. Our awareness disappears when we are unconscious regardless of your continued assertions that it doesn't.

Shall we anaesthetize you and see how aware you are as we dismember you? Consider

I've had a couple of fairly major surgeries, I wasn't aware during either and I'm very happy about that. It would have been unpleasant.

Ugh. I’ve had to undergo two colonoscopies. I can unequivocally state two absolutes from the experiences.

1. As unpleasant as the day before was drinking the purgatory http://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-a...olonoscopy the anaesthetic (Propofol?) was worth it!
2. I have no recollections of the three hours I was out, no dreams, nothing. Most pleasant rest I’ve ever had.

Edit: I didn’t float over my body watching the procedure, I didn’t talk with my ancestors, I didn’t see a bright light, didn’t hear harps, wasn’t aware of my body...in other words NOT conscious. I would take this to mean that without my body there was no “other” me, unless you can anaesthesize the ethereal “consciousness” so many woo-peddlers claim exists.

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09-02-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(09-02-2015 09:52 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 09:45 AM)pablo Wrote:  I've had a couple of fairly major surgeries, I wasn't aware during either and I'm very happy about that. It would have been unpleasant.

Ugh. I’ve had to undergo two colonoscopies. I can unequivocally state two absolutes from the experiences.

1. As unpleasant as the day before was drinking the purgatory http://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-a...olonoscopy the anaesthetic (Propofol?) was worth it!
2. I have no recollections of the three hours I was out, no dreams, nothing. Most pleasant rest I’ve ever had.

I woke up during one of those, luckily they were almost done.
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09-02-2015, 10:09 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 09:30 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 09:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It does not *disappear*. One is unconscious and not aware of it. The physical electrical pathways remain intact and resume exactly upon awakening. You are (falsely) interpreting consciousness. It's evidence of nothing, and just because you rename it does not make it something else. Can you play the piano when you awake, when you couldn't when you fell asleep ? Please.


Clearly your education in Neuro-science is very limited.


There are no "pointers" that work as basically you have NOTHING to say.
"Ineffable" is a woo copout and all you have is bullshit.

This is meaningless to you, because you are convinced that you are only an appearance in consciousness. It is certainly a convincing illusion, because even if you've experienced the dissolution of the self, you're still adamant that you are the self that is subject to dissolution, and dependent on whatever happens to spontaneously arise in consciousness next.

Guess what idiot ?
YOU don't get to tell me what I think, or how I think, or what is "meaningless" to me. I am NOT 'convinced I am only an appearance in consciousness". I have said all along brain patterns are physical entities, and while changeable, are neither random, nor do they disappear when awareness of consciousness is not present.
What "arises" in consciosness is not "random". It is totally dependent on a number of non-random factors, NONE of which your idiot theory accounts for.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-02-2015, 10:11 AM
Your true self
(09-02-2015 08:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 09:30 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Let me ask you this. Do you think you are the thinker of your thoughts? Or do see that thoughts just happen, and you are only aware of them?

I think I may have an inkling of what you are trying to say. I often use a light form of meditation to get to sleep quickly and one of the "tricks" I've learned is to stop reacting to thoughts and instead to just (mentally) step back watching and listening to various thoughts but letting them pass without focusing on any of them. It feels like I am disassociating "me" from my brain so that I can get some sleep without it keeping me up all night. Big Grin

Does that sound like it even approaches what you've been trying to describe? If so, I don't see any reason to think that it means much. The "self" that I am most aware of is the high-level conciousness that is processing the thoughts that are arising from my brain but those thoughts are just as much a part of "me". I'm not aware of where or how they are formed but I liken that to the idea that I'm not (usually) aware of how digestion is progressing or how the oxygen is diffusing from the blood into the other tissues.

My splitting "me" from "my brain" is just a mental trick I've found to help me get to sleep faster. It doesn't hint at any deeper self or provide any way for the universe to know itself...

Thanks for the interesting post.

The light form of meditation you use, is known by some as 'true meditation' and is a method of direct seeing into ones nature as the awareness in which all thoughts arise (more on that in a bit).

Yes, that describes that sense of just 'being,' without attachment to whatever contents in consciousness arise. It's interesting you bring up the examples of not being aware of digestion or oxygen diffusing from blood into tissues, and the physical processes we are not in control of. Seeing thoughts like this, in this dissociated way, as just another function of the body/mind complex, is very healthy psychologically, and is one of the premises of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT).

' Wrote:If so, I don't see any reason to think that it means much. The "self" that I am most aware of is the high-level conciousness that is processing the thoughts that are arising from my brain but those thoughts are just as much a part of "me".

It makes me smile that you don't see a reasons to think it means much, when this way of seeing is basically the foundation of all spiritual and religious insights. It's neat you have such a pragmatic way of looking at it.

The point about the thoughts being just as much a part of "me" is our point of disagreement. Certainly, it is a habit of the mind to incorporate thoughts into our sense of 'self.' Thoughts like "I'm a kind person because I donated charity" or "I'm a terrible public speaker" or other self-centered thoughts that have been added to this conceptualization of who we are built-up over a lifetime.

However, what I'd disagree with, is that these have anything to do with who or what you really are. In your own "light meditation", you see that thoughts just arise spontaneously, and disappear often as quickly as they came. Now, when one of these thoughts is self-centered in nature, it usually piques one's interest and is followed for a while. Even though the veracity of the thought is completely suspect, the mind wanders and it often causes psychological suffering in the forms of doubt, fear, anxiety, etc.

Now, that self-centered thoughts cause psychological suffering is not evidence that the 'self'( built upon thoughts) is a false assumption. But, having observed thoughts arising and dissipating during your 'light meditation,' do you not question their authenticity as indicators of who or what you are?

' Wrote:My splitting "me" from "my brain" is just a mental trick I've found to help me get to sleep faster. It doesn't hint at any deeper self or provide any way for the universe to know itself...

That the "me" is able to be split from "my brain" should indicate that the "me" is a false assumption, and has no autonomous existence other than in the thoughts that are just appearances in consciousness. That the 'me' is a false assumption, could hint that what you are and have been all this time is not the 'me', but the awareness in which the 'me' is just an appearance.

Telling you this with words is pretty much useless. Because what I'm trying to tell you is your true nature, is the place in which all conceptions arise. Trying to find your "deeper self" within thought is never going to work. How could you find in thought, the place in which thoughts arise?

With your "light meditation" you get a glimpse of what it is like to rest as your true nature. Where you are just presence, a sense of being, not attached to thoughts, feelings, or sensations, but the backdrop in which they all arise. Resting as this, is a place of peace and contentment, because you see clearly that the dramas and problems the mind spins and creates are mere fictions.

What you're doing with 'light meditation' may not currently hint at any deeper self for you. But if you learn to stay with that feeling of presence and awareness existing, not just before bedtime, but during your waking state as well, your understanding that the fictions the mind spins will be with you throughout your daily life, and suddenly the problems that come with believing yourself to be a separate 'self' apart from awareness are no longer problems. You're able to go through life with a natural ease and happiness, resting as the awareness that can never be touched by negative feelings, or marred by insults or wrongdoings.
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09-02-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(09-02-2015 09:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 09:15 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  If your sense of a continuous 'self' that is merely an appearance in consciousness dies (or disappears) every night, but yet you remain aware, then can your true nature really be that 'self'? Is there something more fundamental, an always present constant, that is with you, regardless of what stage of sleep you are in, or what thoughts are appearing?

This something that I'm pointing to is, the sense of "I know that I am." It is there regardless of the appearances in consciousness, in fact, is it what the appearances in consciousness arise from. You are that, the source of the appearances in consciousness.

You know that this sense of 'self' that has been dissolved so many times for you is obviously a false assumption predicated by a lifetime of habitual responses and experiences. So knowing that it is false, why is there no inclination to find out what you truly are?

It is not a false assumption. Our awareness disappears when we are unconscious regardless of your continued assertions that it doesn't.

Shall we anaesthetize you and see how aware you are as we dismember you? Consider

Certainly, thoughts, feelings, and sensations disappear when we are unconscious (in deep sleep). But unless you're under general anesthetic, and are merely just unconscious while in deep sleep, some aspect of awareness must still be there or you would not be able to be woken by a loud sound, water poured on your face, etc. How do you explain this if there is not some level of awareness present?
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09-02-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(09-02-2015 10:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 09:30 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  This is meaningless to you, because you are convinced that you are only an appearance in consciousness. It is certainly a convincing illusion, because even if you've experienced the dissolution of the self, you're still adamant that you are the self that is subject to dissolution, and dependent on whatever happens to spontaneously arise in consciousness next.

Guess what idiot ?
YOU don't get to tell me what I think, or how I think, or what is "meaningless" to me. I am NOT 'convinced I am only an appearance in consciousness". I have said all along brain patterns are physical entities, and while changeable, are neither random, nor do they disappear when awareness of consciousness is not present.
What "arises" in consciosness is not "random". It is totally dependent on a number of non-random factors, NONE of which your idiot theory accounts for.

Saying it was meaningless to you, was not an attack on you, but rather me pointing out that words and conceptions are not capable of describing what it is in which words and conceptions arise. Recognizing that one is awareness, and not an amalgamation of thoughts, feelings, and sensations is something that can only be experienced, not described.

You're right, what arises in consciousness is not random. It is dependent on antecedent causes seemingly innumerable. If I used the word random, I only meant in so far as we are not aware of what is going to arise next in consciousness until it does.

As for my "idiot theory," I have no theory. All I have been saying is essentially "you are aware, and you know that you are aware." Nothing idiotic about that, in fact, it's the most simple and only truth we can actually know. Everything else is just an appearance or conception within that awareness.

Now, obviously there is a disconnect for people to experience the truth of a statement that they know intellectually to be true. I'm trying to find a way to take it beyond an intellectual understanding that one is aware and they exist, to the direct recognition of this truth. Recognizing this truth dissolves the suffering that comes from believing one is a separate self, and what their non-random thoughts are telling them. If you learn to go with the flow, and see thoughts as simply thoughts, and not attach to them, suddenly the problems that you thought were problems, are no longer problems. Psychological suffering is based on this idea that you are the 'doer' with stuff to do.

Now, given that we both appreciate that appearances in consciousness are not random, and are "totally dependent on non-random factors" perhaps you can appreciate my way of seeing that attaching ones well-being to these "non-random factors" that we have no control over is misguided and leads to suffering.
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