What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
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09-02-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(09-02-2015 09:52 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I didn’t float over my body watching the procedure, I didn’t talk with my ancestors, I didn’t see a bright light, didn’t hear harps, wasn’t aware of my body...

Yeah, those drugs cost extra....Drinking Beverage

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
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09-02-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(09-02-2015 10:15 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 09:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is not a false assumption. Our awareness disappears when we are unconscious regardless of your continued assertions that it doesn't.

Shall we anaesthetize you and see how aware you are as we dismember you? Consider

Certainly, thoughts, feelings, and sensations disappear when we are unconscious (in deep sleep). But unless you're under general anesthetic, and are merely just unconscious while in deep sleep, some aspect of awareness must still be there or you would not be able to be woken by a loud sound, water poured on your face, etc. How do you explain this if there is not some level of awareness present?

Your definition of awareness is so broad as to be useless for your argument. There is no sense of self when unconscious.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-02-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(09-02-2015 10:11 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  It makes me smile that you don't see a reasons to think it means much, when this way of seeing is basically the foundation of all spiritual and religious insights. It's neat you have such a pragmatic way of looking at it.

I've always tried to maintain a very practical, pragmatic viewpoint. I never believed in any religious or other woo because I could never find anything tangible to base those beliefs on. This is no different.

Quote:The point about the thoughts being just as much a part of "me" is our point of disagreement.

I sometimes think of it in computer terms with the everyday "me" being like the OS that is scheduling time among various activities and responding to events. The applications that are generating those events are every bit as much a part of the running system as the OS though. I am the sum of the conscious "me" that is watching what is going on (and deciding what to follow and what to ignore) and all of the subconscious/unconscious thoughts that are being generated by the lower-level brain systems and bodily functions. "I" don't have direct access into what is causing those thoughts, nor do "I" have any direct control over them but they are still very much a part of what defines me.

Quote:But, having observed thoughts arising and dissipating during your 'light meditation,' do you not question their authenticity as indicators of who or what you are?

Not in the least. They are part of the total package but they aren't what I am any more than the engine is the real car and the steering mechanism isn't. The fact that I can use the car without ever looking under the hood doesn't change the overall composition of the car in any way. Without the engine you have no car. Without the steering mechanism you have no car. Neither is the "true car", only te combination of all components is.

Quote:That the "me" is able to be split from "my brain" should indicate that the "me" is a false assumption, and has no autonomous existence other than in the thoughts that are just appearances in consciousness. That the 'me' is a false assumption, could hint that what you are and have been all this time is not the 'me', but the awareness in which the 'me' is just an appearance.

I completely disagree with that. The "me" isn't actually being split from the rest of my thoughts. As I said, that's just a trick, an illusion, that I create for myself as a means to an end. The conscious "me" is an integral part of who I am. The thoughts that are being generated are coming from other integral parts of who I am, they are just not as accessible to the conscious part.

Quote:With your "light meditation" you get a glimpse of what it is like to rest as your true nature.

No, that is not my "true nature", it is a part of my overall nature. The meditation "trick" may allow me to pay attention to "me" in a way that I don't most of the rest of the day but that doesn't make the conscious "me" any less my "true nature". They are intertwined and while looking at them separately may provide a better understanding of the overall system it doesn't make either more important than the other. Without either one, "I" would not be.

Quote:What you're doing with 'light meditation' may not currently hint at any deeper self for you. But if you learn to stay with that feeling of presence and awareness existing, not just before bedtime, but during your waking state as well,

To a large extent I can. I find I can tune into that state fairly easily now and I can watch dispassionately. It is a useful way for me to stop, take a deep breath, and prioritize things when too much seems to be happening at once.

Quote:your understanding that the fictions the mind spins will be with you throughout your daily life, and suddenly the problems that come with believing yourself to be a separate 'self' apart from awareness are no longer problems. You're able to go through life with a natural ease and happiness, resting as the awareness that can never be touched by negative feelings, or marred by insults or wrongdoings.

But none of that makes any sense to me at all. I understand that what I am doing is creating an artificial division that makes it appear that my conscious self is isolated from the unconscious. It is a convenient fiction that lets me be more aware of my mental state and feel like I have more control over it but it isn't pointing to any "true nature". You're just piling a load of woo on the way the brain works.

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09-02-2015, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2015 01:24 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 09:10 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  If you're just an appearance in consciousness, then do you die every time you go to sleep at night?

"I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead;
I lift my lids and all is born again.
(I think I made you up inside my head.)" - Plath

Or as HouseOfCantor has so elegantly put it, "I am just the pauses between the Gwynnies."

(09-02-2015 09:15 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  This something that I'm pointing to is, the sense of "I know that I am." ... You know that this sense of 'self' that has been dissolved so many times for you is obviously a false assumption predicated by a lifetime of habitual responses and experiences. So knowing that it is false, why is there no inclination to find out what you truly are?

I do not know that I am. What I do know is that if I am, and that's a big if, I am something completely different from anything I can imagine. Something ineffable.

(08-02-2015 09:10 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Now I've never been known in person to be arrogant, condescending, patronizing or presumptuous, ... You're certainly right that I'm not saying anything original. There have been more books on this arguably than any other subject. However, I'm trying to figure out a way to say it without it filled with woo and jargon, ...

Sounds presumptuous to me.

(08-02-2015 09:10 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  That you've been experiencing and contemplating these things for years, are you searching for something you just haven't found yet? What have you learned with all your years of experiences and contemplation? Do you just enjoy the experiences?

I've learned not to read too much into poetry or music.

(08-02-2015 09:10 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  You're right, sometimes people experience 'no self,' and it doesn't move them to experience the world free from ignorance and false beliefs. However, for some, the experience of 'no self' lights a fire under their ass, and they'll stop at nothing to see it through until it either becomes their permanent abode or they die trying.

If you have to try, you ain't doing it right. No effort required.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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