What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
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02-02-2015, 09:13 PM
Not quite
(02-02-2015 07:20 PM)pablo Wrote:  
Quote:I'm currently writing a book that synthesizes the scientific evidence for our true nature

This looks eerily similar to something I read about synthesizing the gospels of , well, whoever wrote them.
Veridi-something if I remember correctly.


It may sound similar with the cursory understanding I provided in my short OP, but the truth of who/what we are can be found in chemistry, biology, astronomy; if you watched the recent Cosmos series, or original Cosmos, that's the type of scientific evidence I'm referring to.
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02-02-2015, 09:24 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 08:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 07:56 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Defining something that is beyond labels and conceptions is going to be difficult. All our communication is based on constructs of the mind, so how does one go about defining the surface in which the constructs of the mind occurs? I will try though.

Right now, you are seeing and hearing things. You are aware that you are seeing and hearing things. Awareness is the place in which the seeing and hearing is occurring.

That the self is an illusion is a position built from a vast number of peer-reviewed studies.

Two books I can recommend that delve deeply into the neuroscientific evidence for the illusory sense of self are 'Being No One' by Thomas Metzinger and 'The Self Illusion' by Bruce Hood. Sam Harris also a chapter on the illusory nature of the self in his book, 'Waking Up'.

I will try to find specific peer-reviewed studies that deal with the broader topic of the illusory sense of self as that will certainly come in handy for my research. If/when I do find them, I will be sure to point you towards them.

I should point that out subjective experience of the self is real in so far as most people take themselves to be a self. However, when one goes searching for the self, or the seat of consciousness, they find that it's a cobbled together construction of various brain processes and has no real existence other than in the present contents of consciousness.


The BRAIN is the place where seeing and hearing is taking place.

Yes, of course, one way of looking at it is that the processes of seeing and hearing are occurring in brain structures. Having spent a summer slicing up mice brains with a microtome and peering through a microscope at neurons and counting the dendritic spines, I'm intimately familiar the physical basis for our experience.

However, the physical brain is also producing a, how should I say, field of awareness in which the contents of consciousness appear. How it does this is currently a mystery, but that it does this is verified by everyone of us in the direct knowing that we exist and are aware.

So when I say that awareness is the place where seeing and hearing is taking place, what I mean is that beyond thoughts, feelings and sensations, it is the backdrop, the recognition and knowing of these things. You can verify this experientially by closing your eyes for a few minutes and observing the spontaneous arisings of consciousness. They are arising in the ever-present awareness.

Renaming the brain "awareness" is simply woo.

Sure is.
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02-02-2015, 09:41 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 09:13 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 07:20 PM)pablo Wrote:  This looks eerily similar to something I read about synthesizing the gospels of , well, whoever wrote them.
Veridi-something if I remember correctly.


It may sound similar with the cursory understanding I provided in my short OP, but the truth of who/what we are can be found in chemistry, biology, astronomy; if you watched the recent Cosmos series, or original Cosmos, that's the type of scientific evidence I'm referring to.

Chemistry, biology, and astronomy can explain our physical makeup. Are you trying to make a jump to non-physical consciousness?
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02-02-2015, 09:42 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 09:24 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  The BRAIN is the place where seeing and hearing is taking place.

Yes, of course, one way of looking at it is that the processes of seeing and hearing are occurring in brain structures. Having spent a summer slicing up mice brains with a microtome and peering through a microscope at neurons and counting the dendritic spines, I'm intimately familiar the physical basis for our experience.

However, the physical brain is also producing a, how should I say, field of awareness in which the contents of consciousness appear. How it does this is currently a mystery, but that it does this is verified by everyone of us in the direct knowing that we exist and are aware.

So when I say that awareness is the place where seeing and hearing is taking place, what I mean is that beyond thoughts, feelings and sensations, it is the backdrop, the recognition and knowing of these things. You can verify this experientially by closing your eyes for a few minutes and observing the spontaneous arisings of consciousness. They are arising in the ever-present awareness.

Renaming the brain "awareness" is simply woo.

Sure is.

It may be a mystery to you. Apparently you don't know much about Nero-science.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-02-2015, 09:48 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
Spiritic, when you reply with a quote, please type your reply after the second [quote].
It makes it much easier for us to read. Thanks.
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02-02-2015, 09:54 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 05:32 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  ...
I have not read a lot of Dennett so it would be ignorant to make a statement on whether my idea of the illusory self is similar to his. Do you have a short primer, or something I could read to get up to speed on his theory of consciousness?

This analysis / review of his Consciousness Explained and its reception should whet your appetite.


Dennett's Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking is well worth reading.

Here's a taster:




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02-02-2015, 09:59 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
I haven’t been able to read most of your replies because of formatting issues.

From what I have read I am extremely leery of your thinking mostly because I’m having to strain to make any sense out of your unclear and complicated ramblings.

I have a short attention span so do me the favor of clarity and preciseness. Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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02-02-2015, 10:26 PM
Suffering the separate self
(02-02-2015 09:41 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 09:13 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  

Chemistry, biology, and astronomy can explain our physical makeup. Are you trying to make a jump to non-physical consciousness?

Our physical makeup points to the same truth of spiritual enlightenment. That no 'self' can be found in the brain. That we are self-aware universe. The universe is as it is, and all we can do is observe it. When we believe we are separate from the universe, and identify with the individual and its self-centered thoughts, that's where suffering comes from in the form of doubt, fear, anxieties, depression.

I am trying to show that science and spirituality are both pointing to the same thing, that we are not a separate self, but rather we are the self-aware universe, to put it rather flowery.
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02-02-2015, 10:28 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 09:48 PM)pablo Wrote:  Spiritic, when you reply with a quote, please type your reply after the second [quote].
It makes it much easier for us to read. Thanks.

Apologies, I thought bolding the question and responding under the bold was readable. Going back, I can see how it would be confusing if you're used to seeing the response under all the quoted text. Thanks for the heads up.
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02-02-2015, 10:31 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 09:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 09:24 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  The BRAIN is the place where seeing and hearing is taking place.

Yes, of course, one way of looking at it is that the processes of seeing and hearing are occurring in brain structures. Having spent a summer slicing up mice brains with a microtome and peering through a microscope at neurons and counting the dendritic spines, I'm intimately familiar the physical basis for our experience.

However, the physical brain is also producing a, how should I say, field of awareness in which the contents of consciousness appear. How it does this is currently a mystery, but that it does this is verified by everyone of us in the direct knowing that we exist and are aware.

So when I say that awareness is the place where seeing and hearing is taking place, what I mean is that beyond thoughts, feelings and sensations, it is the backdrop, the recognition and knowing of these things. You can verify this experientially by closing your eyes for a few minutes and observing the spontaneous arisings of consciousness. They are arising in the ever-present awareness.

Renaming the brain "awareness" is simply woo.

Sure is.

It may be a mystery to you. Apparently you don't know much about Nero-science.

Since when has the hard problem of consciousness been solved. Do tell Tongue
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