What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
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02-02-2015, 10:33 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 09:41 PM)pablo Wrote:  Chemistry, biology, and astronomy can explain our physical makeup. Are you trying to make a jump to non-physical consciousness?

Our physical makeup points to the same truth of spiritual enlightenment. That no 'self' can be found in the brain. That we are self-aware universe. The universe is as it is, and all we can do is observe it. When we believe we are separate from the universe, and identify with the individual and its self-centered thoughts, that's where suffering comes from in the form of doubt, fear, anxieties, depression.

I am trying to show that science and spirituality are both pointing to the same thing, that we are not a separate self, but rather we are the self-aware universe, to put it rather flowery.

I was hoping for a yes or no answer, with maybe a brief explanation. You gave me neither.
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02-02-2015, 10:52 PM
More rambling, or cogent thoughts, you decide.
(02-02-2015 09:59 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I haven’t been able to read most of your replies because of formatting issues.

From what I have read I am extremely leery of your thinking mostly because I’m having to strain to make any sense out of your unclear and complicated ramblings.

I have a short attention span so do me the favor of clarity and preciseness. Thumbsup

Sorry about that, I didn't realize the bolding and responses under the bold would cause so much confusion.

Yeah, that it's unclear and complicated is an unfortunate limitation of trying to use words to describe that which is ineffable. This is good to know though, because my aim in being here is to hone my ability to describe it so that it is both clear and precise.

Alright, so here it goes. Are you aware that you exist? The answer is obviously yes, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So now, what does that mean, to be aware? It's an instantaneous recognition. But what does that mean. It means that you intuitively know that you're aware before even putting posing the question to yourself with a thought.

You know that you aware, and that thoughts, feelings, and sensations are occurring. Where are they occurring? Now this is kind of a strange question, because we normally just accept that they're happening, but we rarely think about where they are happening or what they are happening on. Of course when I say where, and what, I'm not describing a physical location, and the what is not something that can be found in the mind.

This is where it gets tricky. If awareness is not a 'what' that can be found in the mind, how can I use labels and concepts to accurately describe or point to it. Well all I can say is that, for there to be the observation of these thoughts, feelings, and sensations, they must be appearing on something. You are that on which they appear. Your true nature is as awareness.

The funny thing is, what I'm pointing, is the same thing the Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Lao Tzo, and almost every spiritual guru and their dog is pointing to. The problem I found with their pointers is that they're usually couched in pseudoscience with unnecessary dogma and woo language.

Now, I notice that it seems my pointers are having the same effect, which is good to notice. I'm here to overcome this. As an atheist and skeptic, I know that I wouldn't have given this, and quite frankly didn't care to understand about any of this, until I had a taste of the truth that is being pointed to. It was only when I had the experience of "ego death" and "waking up" that I paid any attention to what the greatest spiritual and religious traditions have been saying for millenia.

Now, how I'm going to portray this to atheists and skeptics without sounding like woo-crazy, that will be the interesting part.

I suppose this may appear as more rambling. Perhaps if you asked me some pointed questions, I can try to be clear and precise with my answers (no guarantees though, but I'll do my best).
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02-02-2015, 10:57 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 10:33 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Our physical makeup points to the same truth of spiritual enlightenment. That no 'self' can be found in the brain. That we are self-aware universe. The universe is as it is, and all we can do is observe it. When we believe we are separate from the universe, and identify with the individual and its self-centered thoughts, that's where suffering comes from in the form of doubt, fear, anxieties, depression.

I am trying to show that science and spirituality are both pointing to the same thing, that we are not a separate self, but rather we are the self-aware universe, to put it rather flowery.

I was hoping for a yes or no answer, with maybe a brief explanation. You gave me neither.

How do you define non-physical consciousness? Consciousness is produced from physical processes, but can the experiencing of consciousness be anything other than non-physical?

I should have asked you to clarify the question, rather than taking a stab at what you were getting at.
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02-02-2015, 11:14 PM
RE: What are your opinions....
(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Our physical makeup points to the same truth of spiritual enlightenment.

This is, however, currently -really- just your say so, though?

Is it not?

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  That no 'self' can be found in the brain.

Yes, it can. MRI scans can show areas of the brain working as neurons precess information etc. People who's brains have been damaged through illness or accident can and do show changes to personality, learning, knowledge, experiences etc.

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  That we are self-aware universe.


That I too have used the line 'We are all, our existences which only reach to the limit/surface of our skin' does, in no way, mean I agree with yourself that every one is some how equal to the scale of what we can see when we look up into the night sky.

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  The universe is as it is, and all we can do is observe it.

As far as we are aware, currently, yes the Universe is all that is.

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  When we believe we are separate from the universe, and identify with the individual and its self-centered thoughts, that's where suffering comes from in the form of doubt, fear, anxieties, depression.

Again, unfortunately, the 'Us'/'Individual' is all any one is. We all 'empathize' with others because we can 'put ourselves in their shoes' (Those who can't are generally deemed to be psychotic. I hope that is the right term. Or perhaps Sociopath-ic? )

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  I am trying to show that science and spirituality are both pointing to the same thing,

Great... keeping things simple for a lay-man such as myself will be appreciated. Cheers. Smile

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  That we are not a separate self, but rather we are the self-aware universe, to put it rather flowery.

And, I would say, you're putting it much too 'flowery' and 'rainbow-magic-sparkle' like to be any where near considered reasonable. But, hey, further posts might show myself and others something different.

Much cheers to all.
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02-02-2015, 11:15 PM
RE: What are yont/self-realization and what are they based on?
Quote:I'm not describing a physical location, and the what is not something that can be found in the mind.

This is where it starts to tailspin for me.
To the best of my knowledge, there is currently no process that can reliably measure, locate, or observe consciousness/awareness outside of a physical brain.
When you confidently state that consciousness/awareness is "not something that can be found in the mind", I wonder how you came to that conclusion.
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02-02-2015, 11:26 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 10:57 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 10:33 PM)pablo Wrote:  I was hoping for a yes or no answer, with maybe a brief explanation. You gave me neither.

How do you define non-physical consciousness? Consciousness is produced from physical processes, but can the experiencing of consciousness be anything other than non-physical?

I should have asked you to clarify the question, rather than taking a stab at what you were getting at.

I try not to define non-physical consciousness at all.
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02-02-2015, 11:33 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 10:31 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  ...

Since when has the hard problem of consciousness been solved. Do tell Tongue

Again, read some Dennett. You may not agree with him but at least you'll be able to argue your position referencing ground that has already been trodden.

Smile

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03-02-2015, 12:42 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  That we are not a separate self, but rather we are the self-aware universe, to put it rather flowery.

Maybe if we can focus on this one statement and work back logically from there, that will help.

This statement strongly implies a singular consciousness. Can you illustrate the next steps back from that conclusion from a reasoned premise (e.g. that we each have consciousness, which is a natural product of brain activity)?

Perhaps you can also illustrate some proof for your assertion that observing "thoughts" through mindfulness exercises is anything other than the brain's normal function (i.e. if the brain operates like a neural network computer, it might generate thousands of optional solutions to a problem - recognising a pattern for example - and eventually brings to front of mind the best solution).

Otherwise this sounds like a form of singular consciousness pantheism.

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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03-02-2015, 05:01 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 10:52 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Yeah, that it's unclear and complicated is an unfortunate limitation of trying to use words to describe that which is ineffable. This is good to know though, because my aim in being here is to hone my ability to describe it so that it is both clear and precise.

There is nothing about "ineffable" that's has anything to do with science. You're just the latest in a VERY VERY long line of nuts coming here to try to peddle your pet shit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-02-2015, 06:12 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2015 06:36 AM by bemore.)
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
Last october I got a diploma in 'clinical hypnotherapy'. Sadly hypnotherapy is currently unregulated, so it is as open to woo and charlatans as much as its open to people like me, who would like to understand what happens in our brains and use it to try and improve other peoples lifes.

Some ineresting information on hypnotherapy can be found here on the British Psychological Societies website.

http://www.digest.bps.org.uk/2013/08/neu...nosis.Html

What is interesting is that, through guided imagery, I can change the way people see and react to the world around them, I am the intermediary to a person sculpting their own consciousness. I do not fully understand how it works, I am just repeating tried and tested methods that my hypnotic predecessors learnt.

This to me just re-enforces that the 'self' is illusory. I could potentially hypnotise somebody and give them suggestions to experience talking to god and that the experience would touch them deeply. If they were willing to accept these suggestions then they would experience this in their own subjective way, drawing upon all of their previous experiences and memories on what they percieve god is. They might see god as a man or a force.... whatever.

They would not be conversing with god, although they might believe they have done.

EDIT. Apologies the link I posted does not seem to work. I am using the internet on my ps4 and have to type links out as i cant copy them. If people google 'neuroscience gets serious about hypnotherapy' then you will find the link.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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