What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
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03-02-2015, 07:55 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
I think the root of consciousness is in our anus, as it is one of the first things to develop in a fetus Tongue

Too much emphasis is put on the brain when your gut also contains neurons (enteric nervous system)

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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03-02-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Whant/self-realization and what are they based on?
Spiritic, you seem to be trying to'synthesize' a 'spiritual'(whatever that means) atheistish hybrid.
In other words, an atheist (sorta) who is willing to accept a certain amount of woo, and desperately needs to believe in something that (as you've described it) falls just a hair short of being called a god.

You claim to be an atheist, yet you believe (or want to believe) in a higher consciousness than yourself.
Perhaps Buddhism is what you're looking for?
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03-02-2015, 09:12 AM
What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(03-02-2015 07:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  I think the root of consciousness is in our anus, as it is one of the first things to develop in a fetus Tongue

Too much emphasis is put on the brain when your gut also contains neurons (enteric nervous system)

Who’s the Boss?

When the Lord made man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be boss.

The brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he should be boss.
The legs argued that since they took man wherever he wanted to go, they should be boss.
The stomach countered with the explanation that since he digested all the food, he should be boss.
The eyes said that without them man would be helpless, so they should be boss. Then the asshole applied for the job.

The other parts of the body laughed so hard at this that the asshole became mad and closed up.

After a few days…

The brain went foggy, the legs got wobbly, the stomach got ill, and the eyes got crossed and unable to see. They all conceded and made the asshole boss.

This proved that you don’t have to be a brain to be boss…

Just an Asshole. [Image: EM9rl6c.gif]

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-02-2015, 09:21 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(03-02-2015 09:12 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 07:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  I think the root of consciousness is in our anus, as it is one of the first things to develop in a fetus Tongue

Too much emphasis is put on the brain when your gut also contains neurons (enteric nervous system)

Who’s the Boss?

When the Lord made man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be boss.

The brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he should be boss.
The legs argued that since they took man wherever he wanted to go, they should be boss.
The stomach countered with the explanation that since he digested all the food, he should be boss.
The eyes said that without them man would be helpless, so they should be boss. Then the asshole applied for the job.

The other parts of the body laughed so hard at this that the asshole became mad and closed up.

After a few days…

The brain went foggy, the legs got wobbly, the stomach got ill, and the eyes got crossed and unable to see. They all conceded and made the asshole boss.

This proved that you don’t have to be a brain to be boss…

Just an Asshole. [Image: EM9rl6c.gif]

I've worked for that guy.
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03-02-2015, 09:31 AM
What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 10:52 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Sorry about that, I didn't realize the bolding and responses under the bold would cause so much confusion.

Yeah, that it's unclear and complicated is an unfortunate limitation of trying to use words to describe that which is ineffable. This is good to know though, because my aim in being here is to hone my ability to describe it so that it is both clear and precise.

Alright, so here it goes. Are you aware that you exist? The answer is obviously yes, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So now, what does that mean, to be aware? It's an instantaneous recognition. But what does that mean. It means that you intuitively know that you're aware before even putting posing the question to yourself with a thought.

You know that you aware, and that thoughts, feelings, and sensations are occurring. Where are they occurring? Now this is kind of a strange question, because we normally just accept that they're happening, but we rarely think about where they are happening or what they are happening on. Of course when I say where, and what, I’m not describing a physical location, and the what is not something that can be found in the mind.

This is the part that I must tell you to go read books on psychology and neuroscience. The what and where can only happen in our own minds.

(02-02-2015 10:52 PM)‘Spirtic Wrote:  This is where it gets tricky. If awareness is not a 'what' that can be found in the mind, how can I use labels and concepts to accurately describe or point to it. Well all I can say is that, for there to be the observation of these thoughts, feelings, and sensations, they must be appearing on something. You are that on which they appear. Your true nature is as awareness.

Sorry Spirtic, but this reads like babble. Can you cite any studies that support your imaginings in any way?

(02-02-2015 10:52 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  The funny thing is, what I'm pointing, is the same thing the Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Lao Tzo, and almost every spiritual guru and their dog is pointing to. The problem I found with their pointers is that they’re usually couched in pseudoscience with unnecessary dogma and woo language.

Too late, you have gone down the same rabbit hole.

(02-02-2015 10:52 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Now, I notice that it seems my pointers are having the same effect, which is good to notice. I'm here to overcome this. As an atheist and skeptic, I know that I wouldn't have given this, and quite frankly didn't care to understand about any of this, until I had a taste of the truth that is being pointed to. It was only when I had the experience of "ego death" and "waking up" that I paid any attention to what the greatest spiritual and religious traditions have been saying for millenia.

Now, how I'm going to portray this to atheists and skeptics without sounding like woo-crazy, that will be the interesting part.

I suppose this may appear as more rambling. Perhaps if you asked me some pointed questions, I can try to be clear and precise with my answers (no guarantees though, but I'll do my best).

I can’t formulate a pointed question as your ideas are nebulous at best and bordering on woo-woo at worst. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Woo

All of us at some point experience moments of lucidity and epiphanies, maybe that is what you experienced, to ascribe more to it than that is a fool’s errand.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lucidity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling)

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-02-2015, 09:35 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(03-02-2015 09:21 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 09:12 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Who’s the Boss?

When the Lord made man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be boss.

The brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he should be boss.
The legs argued that since they took man wherever he wanted to go, they should be boss.
The stomach countered with the explanation that since he digested all the food, he should be boss.
The eyes said that without them man would be helpless, so they should be boss. Then the asshole applied for the job.

The other parts of the body laughed so hard at this that the asshole became mad and closed up.

After a few days…

The brain went foggy, the legs got wobbly, the stomach got ill, and the eyes got crossed and unable to see. They all conceded and made the asshole boss.

This proved that you don’t have to be a brain to be boss…

Just an Asshole. [Image: EM9rl6c.gif]

I've worked for that guy.

Apparently he gets around a lot, I worked for him too. Come to think of it I work for him now...and I’m self-employed Blink

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-02-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(03-02-2015 07:55 AM)bemore Wrote:  I think the root of consciousness is in our anus...
That would actually explain a certain number of people. Big Grin

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03-02-2015, 06:04 PM
What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 11:14 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  Our physical makeup points to the same truth of spiritual enlightenment.

This is, however, currently -really- just your say so, though?

Is it not?

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  That no 'self' can be found in the brain.

Yes, it can. MRI scans can show areas of the brain working as neurons precess information etc. People who's brains have been damaged through illness or accident can and do show changes to personality, learning, knowledge, experiences etc.

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  That we are self-aware universe.


That I too have used the line 'We are all, our existences which only reach to the limit/surface of our skin' does, in no way, mean I agree with yourself that every one is some how equal to the scale of what we can see when we look up into the night sky.

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  The universe is as it is, and all we can do is observe it.

As far as we are aware, currently, yes the Universe is all that is.

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  When we believe we are separate from the universe, and identify with the individual and its self-centered thoughts, that's where suffering comes from in the form of doubt, fear, anxieties, depression.

Again, unfortunately, the 'Us'/'Individual' is all any one is. We all 'empathize' with others because we can 'put ourselves in their shoes' (Those who can't are generally deemed to be psychotic. I hope that is the right term. Or perhaps Sociopath-ic? )

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  I am trying to show that science and spirituality are both pointing to the same thing,

Great... keeping things simple for a lay-man such as myself will be appreciated. Cheers. Smile

(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  That we are not a separate self, but rather we are the self-aware universe, to put it rather flowery.

And, I would say, you're putting it much too 'flowery' and 'rainbow-magic-sparkle' like to be any where near considered reasonable. But, hey, further posts might show myself and others something different.

Much cheers to all.
Yes, it can. MRI scans can show areas of the brain working as neurons precess information etc. People who's brains have been damaged through illness or accident can and do show changes to personality, learning, knowledge, experiences etc.

These things to do not point to the existence of a self. What they do is point to the fact that what people deem the self is really just a construction of disperit brain processes. We assume a self because having memory gives these dispirate processes some continuity.

That I too have used the line 'We are all, our existences which only reach to the limit/surface of our skin' does, in no way, mean I agree with yourself that every one is some how equal to the scale of what we can see when we look up into the night sky.

I don't know what you mean by "equal to the scale," but we, and "it", are what happens when you leave hydrogen alone for 13 billion years. In that sense, we are equal, because we are made of the same matter and energy.
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03-02-2015, 06:08 PM
What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(02-02-2015 11:15 PM)pablo Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not describing a physical location, and the what is not something that can be found in the mind.

This is where it starts to tailspin for me.
To the best of my knowledge, there is currently no process that can reliably measure, locate, or observe consciousness/awareness outside of a physical brain.
When you confidently state that consciousness/awareness is "not something that can be found in the mind", I wonder how you came to that conclusion.

Of course, consciousness/awareness is in the brain. There is nowhere else for it to be.

When I say that is not something that can be found in the mind... you're right, that's a terrible way to say it.

What I mean, is that it's the canvas of the mind itself, rather than the arisings in the mind, be them thoughts, or feelings, or sensations.

Awareness can't be found in thought, because awareness is what thoughts are arising on. When people think of the mind, they usually think of their thoughts. But I'll stop using the "it can't be found in the mind," that will just cause confusion.
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03-02-2015, 06:17 PM
What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(03-02-2015 12:42 AM)gofish! Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 10:26 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  That we are not a separate self, but rather we are the self-aware universe, to put it rather flowery.

Maybe if we can focus on this one statement and work back logically from there, that will help.

This statement strongly implies a singular consciousness. Can you illustrate the next steps back from that conclusion from a reasoned premise (e.g. that we each have consciousness, which is a natural product of brain activity)?

Perhaps you can also illustrate some proof for your assertion that observing "thoughts" through mindfulness exercises is anything other than the brain's normal function (i.e. if the brain operates like a neural network computer, it might generate thousands of optional solutions to a problem - recognising a pattern for example - and eventually brings to front of mind the best solution).

Otherwise this sounds like a form of singular consciousness pantheism.

I don't believe there is a singular consciousness. What I see is that self-awareness is a phenomenon inside human brains (and likely other animals to some degree as well).

I fully agree that observing thoughts through mindfulness exercises is the brains normal function.

That's really what I'm getting at. I'm not proposing anything radical or woo (despite how the language may seem).

The 'self' or 'ego' is simultaneously assumed with whatever the current contents of consciousness are. Since most of our thoughts are self-centered thoughts, about what "I" have to do in the future, how "I" am feeling, etc. this further reinforces the illusion that the 'self' actually exists as some independent entity. However, as neuroscience and psychology demonstrates, this idea of a 'self' residing somewhere in the brain is illusory. That we believe we experience it is not illusory, but its existence is illusory.

The problem is, when people assume that the 'self' is real, then it creates all sorts of problems. Mental suffering, anxiety, depression, jealousy, guilt, etc. are tied to the false belief that we are this self. Now, even if people know that the 'self' is an illusion, they still live their lives as though it's not.

What I'm pointing to, is that when we're observing the contents of consciousness through mindfulness meditation or whatever, what we're really seeing is our true nature, as the awareness in which the contents of consciousness arise.

Now, to dispel the false belief that we're the sense of self, we need some truth to go back to. The only truth we can ever really know is that we are present and aware. This is the simple truth. This is recognition of spiritual enlightenment or whatever you want to call it. So, by focusing on that, and seeing yourself as that, you can dispel the false belief that you're a separate self, and live free of the trouble that comes from assuming your are the 'self.'

That was a bit of a ramble...
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