What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
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08-02-2015, 11:25 AM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 08:44 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  
(07-02-2015 05:30 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Okay. ... Which one?

The one I quoted right after stating that. Perhaps I should have used a : instead of a . to make it clearer.

Probably. So please respond to my response to your post.

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08-02-2015, 11:58 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2015 05:42 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  I know what I'm trying to say, it just appears as though I'm not doing a very good job of saying it. Now, I'm not sure if this is a function of the people I'm communicating with never having experienced the dissolution of the self and so have difficultly comprehending it, or whether my approach is too scattered.

Given that disassociatives have been a staple of mine of decades, I'm going with the latter. Disassociation is easy. It's reattachment that's the bitch.

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  So, the unfortunate limitation is that I'm trying to communicate something that likely won't be believe until it's experienced. I would like to find a way that helps people have the experience of 'no self.'

Easy peasy. PCP, ketamine, Salvia divinorum, dextromethorphan, and many others.

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  Can you really be an object or appearance?

That's precisely what I am.

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  All I can ask is that you continue to ask me questions and probe into this matter and my description of it, so that we can hopefully learn from each other.

You're not saying anything original and for some of us who have been experiencing and contemplating these things for years, you come across as arrogant, condescending, and patronizing. Presumptuous even. So much for self-dissolution.

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08-02-2015, 04:38 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(03-02-2015 06:17 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 12:42 AM)gofish! Wrote:  Maybe if we can focus on this one statement and work back logically from there, that will help.

This statement strongly implies a singular consciousness. Can you illustrate the next steps back from that conclusion from a reasoned premise (e.g. that we each have consciousness, which is a natural product of brain activity)?

Perhaps you can also illustrate some proof for your assertion that observing "thoughts" through mindfulness exercises is anything other than the brain's normal function (i.e. if the brain operates like a neural network computer, it might generate thousands of optional solutions to a problem - recognising a pattern for example - and eventually brings to front of mind the best solution).

Otherwise this sounds like a form of singular consciousness pantheism.

I don't believe there is a singular consciousness. What I see is that self-awareness is a phenomenon inside human brains (and likely other animals to some degree as well).

I fully agree that observing thoughts through mindfulness exercises is the brains normal function.

That's really what I'm getting at. I'm not proposing anything radical or woo (despite how the language may seem).

The 'self' or 'ego' is simultaneously assumed with whatever the current contents of consciousness are. Since most of our thoughts are self-centered thoughts, about what "I" have to do in the future, how "I" am feeling, etc. this further reinforces the illusion that the 'self' actually exists as some independent entity. However, as neuroscience and psychology demonstrates, this idea of a 'self' residing somewhere in the brain is illusory. That we believe we experience it is not illusory, but its existence is illusory.

The problem is, when people assume that the 'self' is real, then it creates all sorts of problems. Mental suffering, anxiety, depression, jealousy, guilt, etc. are tied to the false belief that we are this self. Now, even if people know that the 'self' is an illusion, they still live their lives as though it's not.

What I'm pointing to, is that when we're observing the contents of consciousness through mindfulness meditation or whatever, what we're really seeing is our true nature, as the awareness in which the contents of consciousness arise.

Now, to dispel the false belief that we're the sense of self, we need some truth to go back to. The only truth we can ever really know is that we are present and aware. This is the simple truth. This is recognition of spiritual enlightenment or whatever you want to call it. So, by focusing on that, and seeing yourself as that, you can dispel the false belief that you're a separate self, and live free of the trouble that comes from assuming your are the 'self.'

That was a bit of a ramble...

Correct. That was a bit of a ramble. Smile

Sorry, been busy with work so it has taken until now to get back to you. I was going to say that it sounds like you're confusing everyone by persisting in using quasi-religious terms to describe normal brain function, but it seems that many have beaten me to that.

I was interested in your post because i have observed what you describe, which others have correctedly deduced is simple dissociation. I found this very useful when i got some ultrahot chilli sauce in my eye once.

This is nothing miraculous.

However I do find it stange that someone who has since claimed to have done postgraduate work on brain function both finds this worthy of special mention and persists in using quasi-religious language to describe it.

In short, something doesn't add up here. Dodgy

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
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N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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08-02-2015, 06:54 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
Me and Cinderella put it all together.




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08-02-2015, 08:19 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 04:38 PM)gofish! Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 06:17 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  I don't believe there is a singular consciousness. What I see is that self-awareness is a phenomenon inside human brains (and likely other animals to some degree as well).

I fully agree that observing thoughts through mindfulness exercises is the brains normal function.

That's really what I'm getting at. I'm not proposing anything radical or woo (despite how the language may seem).

The 'self' or 'ego' is simultaneously assumed with whatever the current contents of consciousness are. Since most of our thoughts are self-centered thoughts, about what "I" have to do in the future, how "I" am feeling, etc. this further reinforces the illusion that the 'self' actually exists as some independent entity. However, as neuroscience and psychology demonstrates, this idea of a 'self' residing somewhere in the brain is illusory. That we believe we experience it is not illusory, but its existence is illusory.

The problem is, when people assume that the 'self' is real, then it creates all sorts of problems. Mental suffering, anxiety, depression, jealousy, guilt, etc. are tied to the false belief that we are this self. Now, even if people know that the 'self' is an illusion, they still live their lives as though it's not.

What I'm pointing to, is that when we're observing the contents of consciousness through mindfulness meditation or whatever, what we're really seeing is our true nature, as the awareness in which the contents of consciousness arise.

Now, to dispel the false belief that we're the sense of self, we need some truth to go back to. The only truth we can ever really know is that we are present and aware. This is the simple truth. This is recognition of spiritual enlightenment or whatever you want to call it. So, by focusing on that, and seeing yourself as that, you can dispel the false belief that you're a separate self, and live free of the trouble that comes from assuming your are the 'self.'

That was a bit of a ramble...

Correct. That was a bit of a ramble. Smile

Sorry, been busy with work so it has taken until now to get back to you. I was going to say that it sounds like you're confusing everyone by persisting in using quasi-religious terms to describe normal brain function, but it seems that many have beaten me to that.

I was interested in your post because i have observed what you describe, which others have correctedly deduced is simple dissociation. I found this very useful when i got some ultrahot chilli sauce in my eye once.

This is nothing miraculous.

However I do find it stange that someone who has since claimed to have done postgraduate work on brain function both finds this worthy of special mention and persists in using quasi-religious language to describe it.

In short, something doesn't add up here. Dodgy

It is a little strange isn't it; I fully appreciate this. I know that it's not uncommon for people to go through experiences in which they dissociate with the sense of self, undergo ego loss, and the like. Often they are seen in the context of just a passing experience and it has no profound effect.

However, for others, this experience is seen as a glimpse into a different way to go about life. I suppose this is why there's been thousands of books written about this very same thing, and it's been twisted into all sorts of religions and spiritual paths.

The quasi-religious language is an unfortunate aspect of not having or possibly knowing better labels to describe it. The reason I think it's worthy of special mention, is because as Sam Harris has tried to elucidate in his book "Waking Up," it's a game changer. It doesn't require adherence or beliefs in things without evidence, of which the majority of literature on this topic has been inundated with.

The truth of the situation is miraculous. Not in terms of it defying the laws of nature, but in just how spectacular it is. We are made of star stuff, we are a way for the cosmos to know itself. It can't get more miraculous than that. A dissociation with the sense of self shows someone briefly that they are not a limited separate person. Why does the recognition have to be fleeting though, and be absorbed back into a belief in an assumption that their experience just showed them was false?
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08-02-2015, 08:46 PM
What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 09:31 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  I know what I'm trying to say, it just appears as though I'm not doing a very good job of saying it. Now, I'm not sure if this is a function of the people I'm communicating with never having experienced the dissolution of the self and so have difficultly comprehending it, or whether my approach is too scattered.

I have experienced the "dissolution of a self". I still don't buy the double-decker universe you're trying to establish. It doesn't exist. There is no "true self", or "false self". The amalgamation of learning and genetics that INDIVIDUALS experience (and which can CHANGE), if what is called the "slef". It's that simple. Trying to turn it into some sort of woo is a fools errand, AND you have presented no evidence for you idea. I'm done UNLESS you present some. You have not so far. Nor have you explained why and how what you're saying is any different from what the world calls "self" already. How do you know that others ALWAYS didn't exist on the plane you're saying you "experienced" ? Maybe YOU are the exception, and cannot generalize from it.

There's the false 'self,' which is the "I" thought strewn together from all the disparate thoughts and perceptions over the lifetime. This 'self' is not real in any sense other than as a perception.

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  So the "real" self I'm pointing too, our true nature, is as the awareness in which the false 'self' is only an appearance. The conditioned habitual response is to assume that we are something in the appearance, such as the body or mind. But they are both objects in awareness. Can you really be an object or appearance?

What I'm pointing to, what every sage, and mystic, and religious tradition points to, is finding this true sense of self by resting as the sense of being awareness. Although the dogma and pseudoscience that is usually attached to this central message makes in unpalatable, they are pointing to something that can be directly experienced.

Which is exactly the same as perception, and/or if not you have not explained the difference.

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  I'm here to practice how to effectively communicate something so simple and obvious that it is overlooked.

By whom exactly ? You took a poll ? Yeah, you are special. Weeping Just like all the rest.
Attaining "enlightenment" has been described by many in many ways. Whatever.

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  Everyone wants happiness, and they know that happiness does not come in the acquisition and fulfillment of desires, because there is always the next desire, the next want, and the cycle continues.

Not everyone. In fact not MOST. And actually "enlightenment may be "just one more desire". Right ? WHo sets the hierarchy of value ? YOU ? Who doed and gave YOU that right ?

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  Despite knowing this, people spend their whole lives trying to fulfill desire after desire, always seeking happiness outside of themselves, knowing full well that is it not really possible; the most they'll get is respite from pain, and moments of pleasure and joy. (This is good enough for most, and it was good enough for me, until I saw there was another way, that didn't require deluding myself into believing something without evidence).

Great. So you're appointed yourself a missionary, and you're going to impart your great wisdom. How wonderful. You're gonna save the world.
Yawn. You think you're come up with something special. Guess what ?

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  So I appreciate fully where you're coming from. All I can ask is that you continue to ask me questions and probe into this matter and my description of it, so that we can hopefully learn from each other.

Not gonna happen. You can't even define your terms coherently, woo-meister.

The evidence for what I'm pointing to is that you are aware and you exist. Full stop. It's not something that I have and you don't.

When you go to sleep at night, and are in deep sleep, the 'self' as in your personal identity disappears, but 'you' still exist. You can still respond to a loud sound, or a jab to the ribs. You are aware, without any attachment to a personal identity. This is the "true" self I'm describing. It's not limited by your beliefs, and conceptions, and faulty memories that are mere reconstructions of past events in the present moment.

As for attaining enlightenment or any such thing, it's a fools errand and distraction. There is nothing to attain, because one knows right now, in this instant, that they are present and aware. But you're right, enlightenment is a desire for some, which is why some people spend years of their life trying in vain to attain it. Enlightenment can be made into a desire, but enlightenment is simply the recognition of what one is.

I say that the simple truth of what one is, is overlooked, because despite experiencing the dissolution of the self every night during deep sleep, or during drug trips, or meditation, people still live as though they are this separate and limited self.

An analogy would be of a person standing at a window who is so busy looking out at the world, fascinated b what's going out there, they fail to see their own reflection right in front of them. People are so engrossed with the play of their minds, their anxieties, their drive for sex and power and wealth, they fail to see what's right in front of them. Some people don't give a shit what's in front of them, and that's perfectly fine. However, for others, they are on a different path, because they see and experience daily how unfulfilling the moving pictures out there are. I'm not trying to save the world, and it makes no difference to me whether people are moved by what I'm saying or not, because there is ultimately no me to be affected by it. I'm just playing out what the universe has in store for me; contra-causal free will is an illusion, yada yada yada.

And I know I can't define my terms correctly, because what I'm trying to describe is ineffable. All I can do is give pointers. I'm just trying to figure out what pointers work better than others. And in that regard, it has been helpful being here.
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08-02-2015, 09:02 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 08:46 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  The evidence for what I'm pointing to is that you are aware and you exist. Full stop. It's not something that I have and you don't.

When you go to sleep at night, and are in deep sleep, the 'self' as in your personal identity disappears, but 'you' still exist. You can still respond to a loud sound, or a jab to the ribs. You are aware, without any attachment to a personal identity. This is the "true" self I'm describing. It's not limited by your beliefs, and conceptions, and faulty memories that are mere reconstructions of past events in the present moment.

It does not *disappear*. One is unconscious and not aware of it. The physical electrical pathways remain intact and resume exactly upon awakening. You are (falsely) interpreting consciousness. It's evidence of nothing, and just because you rename it does not make it something else. Can you play the piano when you awake, when you couldn't when you fell asleep ? Please.

(08-02-2015 08:46 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  I say that the simple truth of what one is, is overlooked, because despite experiencing the dissolution of the self every night during deep sleep, or during drug trips, or meditation, people still live as though they are this separate and limited self.

Clearly your education in Neuro-science is very limited.

(08-02-2015 08:46 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  And I know I can't define my terms correctly, because what I'm trying to describe is ineffable. All I can do is give pointers. I'm just trying to figure out what pointers work better than others. And in that regard, it has been helpful being here.

There are no "pointers" that work as basically you have NOTHING to say.
"Ineffable" is a woo copout and all you have is bullshit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-02-2015, 09:10 PM
What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 11:58 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  I know what I'm trying to say, it just appears as though I'm not doing a very good job of saying it. Now, I'm not sure if this is a function of the people I'm communicating with never having experienced the dissolution of the self and so have difficultly comprehending it, or whether my approach is too scattered.

Given that disassociatives have been a staple of mine of decades, I'm going with the latter. Disassociation is easy. It's reattachment that's the bitch.

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  So, the unfortunate limitation is that I'm trying to communicate something that likely won't be believe until it's experienced. I would like to find a way that helps people have the experience of 'no self.'

Easy peasy. PCP, ketamine, Salvia divinorum, dextromethorphan, and many others.

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  Can you really be an object or appearance?

That's precisely what I am.

(08-02-2015 09:22 AM)Spirtic Wrote:  All I can ask is that you continue to ask me questions and probe into this matter and my description of it, so that we can hopefully learn from each other.

You're not saying anything original and for some of us who have been experiencing and contemplating these things for years, you come across as arrogant, condescending, and patronizing. Presumptuous even. So much for self-dissolution.

You're right, sometimes people experience 'no self,' and it doesn't move them to experience the world free from ignorance and false beliefs. However, for some, the experience of 'no self' lights a fire under their ass, and they'll stop at nothing to see it through until it either becomes their permanent abode or they die trying.

If you're just an appearance in consciousness, then do you die every time you go to sleep at night?

You're certainly right that I'm not saying anything original. There have been more books on this arguably than any other subject. However, I'm trying to figure out a way to say it without it filled with woo and jargon, so far, not so good. haha

As for coming across as arrogant, condescending, patronizing and presumptuous; Just because one recognizes their true nature as awareness, doesn't mean they don't still have a body and mind and a personality that functions in the world. Knowing that the self is an illusion, does not make the personality disappear, it just ceases attachment and the inherent suffering that comes with identifying with it. Now I've never been known in person to be arrogant, condescending, patronizing or presumptuous, so I'm going to chalk it up to your own problem and the way you're reading what I'm saying. I know my intentions are not arrogance and condescension, but I think it may be an unfortunate inevitability with some when trying to communicate how to recognize their own spiritual enlightenment, or awakening. I'll try to find a way to hedge what I'm saying so it doesn't come across like that, because I certainly don't think I'm special,

That you've been experiencing and contemplating these things for years, are you searching for something you just haven't found yet? What have you learned with all your years of experiences and contemplation? Do you just enjoy the experiences?

For myself, I have been engrossed with existential thoughts through my late teen years until the present day, and am relentlessky introspective. I think it was Socrates that said, 'The unexamined life is not worth living.' He's goddamn right on that one.
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08-02-2015, 09:30 PM
What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 09:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 08:46 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  The evidence for what I'm pointing to is that you are aware and you exist. Full stop. It's not something that I have and you don't.

When you go to sleep at night, and are in deep sleep, the 'self' as in your personal identity disappears, but 'you' still exist. You can still respond to a loud sound, or a jab to the ribs. You are aware, without any attachment to a personal identity. This is the "true" self I'm describing. It's not limited by your beliefs, and conceptions, and faulty memories that are mere reconstructions of past events in the present moment.

It does not *disappear*. One is unconscious and not aware of it. The physical electrical pathways remain intact and resume exactly upon awakening. You are (falsely) interpreting consciousness. It's evidence of nothing, and just because you rename it does not make it something else. Can you play the piano when you awake, when you couldn't when you fell asleep ? Please.

(08-02-2015 08:46 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  I say that the simple truth of what one is, is overlooked, because despite experiencing the dissolution of the self every night during deep sleep, or during drug trips, or meditation, people still live as though they are this separate and limited self.

Clearly your education in Neuro-science is very limited.

(08-02-2015 08:46 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  And I know I can't define my terms correctly, because what I'm trying to describe is ineffable. All I can do is give pointers. I'm just trying to figure out what pointers work better than others. And in that regard, it has been helpful being here.

There are no "pointers" that work as basically you have NOTHING to say.
"Ineffable" is a woo copout and all you have is bullshit.

You say "one is unconscious and not aware of it." Exactly my point, the 'self' is only an appearance in awareness. This is meaningless to you, because you are convinced that you are only an appearance in consciousness. It is certainly a convincing illusion, because even if you've experienced the dissolution of the self, you're still adamant that you are the self that is subject to dissolution, and dependent on whatever happens to spontaneously arise in consciousness next.

Let me ask you this. Do you think you are the thinker of your thoughts? Or do see that thoughts just happen, and you are only aware of them?

There are certainly pointers that work, otherwise there wouldn't be millions of people who have followed pointers to recognize the simple truth that they are not the limited separate self, but are the awareness in which the self arises as an appearance in consciousness. That my pointers aren't working is due to my inexperience in communicating this, and the nature of my audience.

How do you apply a label and try to conceptualize something, in which the labels and concepts appear? Thoughts are just appearances in awareness. It's not a shock that one can't use thoughts to understand that in which the thoughts arise.
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08-02-2015, 09:44 PM
RE: What are your opinions on enlightenment/self-realization and what are they based on?
(08-02-2015 09:10 PM)Spirtic Wrote:  If you're just an appearance in consciousness, then do you die every time you go to sleep at night?

Yeah, so? What's your point?

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