What are your thoughts on communism?
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15-03-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(15-03-2015 11:32 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 10:03 AM)Blackout Wrote:  DLJ posted an online dictionary definition that is, by consequence, incomplete. Meritocracy means that the most skilled individuals will advance in society and occupy positions of power, and everyone will maximize their skills and execute a certain job that is more appropriate. It also means that non capable individuals shouldn't be in positions of power. I don't agree with 100% of meritocratic theory because in some parts it dwells into eugenics.

Then how about you don't describe yourself as a meritocrat and instead explain your views with more than one word that you don't even agree with in the first place? Dodgy

I don't believe that people are 100% of anything. There are such cases for sure, but for the most part, people usually agree with just the basis of an ideology and the rest is their own flourish. They agree with some things and disregard others. A good example of that is Lenin: Marxism-Leninism. He took the basics and altered the rest. Only the original source can be 100%.

But still. I wouldn't simply say that I am supporter of a certain type of philosophy/"-ism" because then people start adding all the baggage that comes with it and they believe they know everything there is to know about you based on that.

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15-03-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(14-03-2015 06:34 PM)Blackout Wrote:  I'm a little busy to give a full reply right now but if you want to criticize communism at least read the manifesto and inform yourself. There's nothing in marxism that proposes everyone getting the same reward, quite the contrary.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -
Those words ↑ do not say that ↓.
Quote:This means that everyone's needs are satisfied but according to your ability extra rewards will be based on merit.

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15-03-2015, 01:59 PM
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(15-03-2015 12:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 06:34 PM)Blackout Wrote:  I'm a little busy to give a full reply right now but if you want to criticize communism at least read the manifesto and inform yourself. There's nothing in marxism that proposes everyone getting the same reward, quite the contrary.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -
Those words ↑ do not say that ↓.
Quote:This means that everyone's needs are satisfied but according to your ability extra rewards will be based on merit.
Why? I don't agree with the quote. But it's a well known Marx quote. And it's not hard to interpret.

@One, what do you want to know about my views, specifically? I don't need anyone's permission to describe my views.

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15-03-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(15-03-2015 01:59 PM)Blackout Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 12:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -
Those words ↑ do not say that ↓.
This means that everyone's needs are satisfied but according to your ability extra rewards will be based on merit.
Why? I don't agree with the quote. But it's a well known Marx quote. And it's not hard to interpret.

It says nothing about merit or extra rewards; each receives according to need.

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15-03-2015, 03:37 PM
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(15-03-2015 01:59 PM)Blackout Wrote:  @One, what do you want to know about my views, specifically?

I'm just saying that if you want to have a meaningful discussion about your views, or simply present them as something relevant within the context of another discussion, you need to be more precise than saying "I'm X" if you're not actually 100% X. Without qualifiers, the logical assumption is that you are, in fact, 100% X. If I told you I was an anarchist, without saying anything else, would you assume I wanted the government to enact a dress code? Of course not (at least I hope/think so). You would assume I didn't want a government in the first place.

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15-03-2015, 03:54 PM
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(15-03-2015 03:37 PM)One Above All Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 01:59 PM)Blackout Wrote:  @One, what do you want to know about my views, specifically?

I'm just saying that if you want to have a meaningful discussion about your views, or simply present them as something relevant within the context of another discussion, you need to be more precise than saying "I'm X" if you're not actually 100% X. Without qualifiers, the logical assumption is that you are, in fact, 100% X. If I told you I was an anarchist, without saying anything else, would you assume I wanted the government to enact a dress code? Of course not (at least I hope/think so). You would assume I didn't want a government in the first place.

That would be illogical because an anarchist, by definition, cannot accept forms of government in the traditional sense (nation-states) - But an anarchist can, for example, support electing local community leaders to make laws for the people living there. So, if you told me you were an anarchist I would assume you can't support government and government authority because that contradicts anarchist ideology. If you told me you were an anarchist I would simply assume that you deny state authority, but there's many branches of anarchy for me to guess any further than that. Regarding meritocratic systems, there's many ideas you can use to organize economic systems based on skills, capacities, education and intellectual development, so me saying I support the idea only says that I favour highly skilled and capable people occupying accordingly higher responsibility jobs and positions of power

What do you want to know, specifically, about my views? economic views? social views?

Quote:It says nothing about merit or extra rewards; each receives according to need.
Chas, read again. The "need" part is about everyone receiving enough to be satisfied. No hunger, no homeless people, no lack of clothes, no lack of healthcare, etc. The "ability" part means that every individual has different purposes and abilities and therefore has a different role in society - Because of this, by definition, no one is equal because everyone has different skills and aptitudes. The only difference would be the abolition of social class and common ownership of means of production - But that doesn't make everyone 100% equal (not even close) and it doesn't mean the people can't elect some representatives based on democratic suffrage

Check this
Quote:Actually, under communism the motto from each according to his ability, to each according to his need envisions not some abstract, total equality, but rather a sensible, humane distribution of responsibilities and income. In other words, still some significant differences in wages depending on the type, quality, and quantity of work an individual contributes. And a wage gap between the lowest and highest paid workers on the order of the highest being paid about 8 times the lowest. The goal of a socialist U.S. would not be to eliminate all wage differentials, but to bring them back into a sensible range.
http://cpusa.org/under-socialism-will-ev...of-money-/

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15-03-2015, 03:59 PM
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(15-03-2015 03:54 PM)Blackout Wrote:  
Quote:It says nothing about merit or extra rewards; each receives according to need.
Chas, read again. The "need" part is about everyone receiving enough to be satisfied. No hunger, no homeless people, no lack of clothes, no lack of healthcare, etc. The "ability" part means that every individual has different purposes and abilities and therefore has a different role in society - Because of this, by definition, no one is equal because everyone has different skills and aptitudes. The only difference would be the abolition of social class and common ownership of means of production - But that doesn't make everyone 100% equal (not even close) and it doesn't mean the people can't elect some representatives based on democratic suffrage

Check this
Quote:Actually, under communism the motto from each according to his ability, to each according to his need envisions not some abstract, total equality, but rather a sensible, humane distribution of responsibilities and income. In other words, still some significant differences in wages depending on the type, quality, and quantity of work an individual contributes.

Except the words not only don't say that, they don't even imply that.

Quote:
Quote:And a wage gap between the lowest and highest paid workers on the order of the highest being paid about 8 times the lowest. The goal of a socialist U.S. would not be to eliminate all wage differentials, but to bring them back into a sensible range.
http://cpusa.org/under-socialism-will-ev...of-money-/

Non-response. That's socialism, not Communism.

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15-03-2015, 04:13 PM
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(15-03-2015 03:54 PM)Blackout Wrote:  I support the idea only says that I favour highly skilled and capable people occupying accordingly higher responsibility jobs and positions of power

This is all you had to say when you first stated you were a meritocrat. Incidentally, it's also the definition posted by DLJ. The one you said was incomplete after having said it was great.

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15-03-2015, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2015 04:27 PM by Blackout.)
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(15-03-2015 03:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 03:54 PM)Blackout Wrote:  Chas, read again. The "need" part is about everyone receiving enough to be satisfied. No hunger, no homeless people, no lack of clothes, no lack of healthcare, etc. The "ability" part means that every individual has different purposes and abilities and therefore has a different role in society - Because of this, by definition, no one is equal because everyone has different skills and aptitudes. The only difference would be the abolition of social class and common ownership of means of production - But that doesn't make everyone 100% equal (not even close) and it doesn't mean the people can't elect some representatives based on democratic suffrage

Check this

Except the words not only don't say that, they don't even imply that.

Quote:http://cpusa.org/under-socialism-will-ev...of-money-/

Non-response. That's socialism, not Communism.
The link is from the American communist party. And the quote I provided talks specifically about communism.

Also, I miss to see the relevance, socialism is used as synonym to communism frequently and it's either the process to reach communism (a finite one) or the end itself which is similar to communism but with a little less equality and the state is not abolished. Because of that, all communists must be socialists at the same time, though not all socialists are communists

Can you enlighten me on how it would work then, since you seem to know so much about marxism?

Quote:This is all you had to say when you first stated you were a meritocrat. Incidentally, it's also the definition posted by DLJ. The one you said was incomplete after having said it was great.
For me it is a great idea because it prevents the transmission of wealth trough generations/families that so many people hate and consider undeserved. So, what do you want to know, specifically? I can't say anything any further without getting an answer to this question

BTW - My main reason to be against communism is not because of what says on paper, it's a pragmatic one - Politically I pick realism and pragmatism over utopia and idealism - Basically, the reason I'm against communism is because, in the current state of affairs, it is impossible to achieve it because (1) Not many people in the world agree with the idea (2) There is no organized movement strong enough to implement it (3) Most people are not informed enough about what it means (4) Some people are so used to living in capitalism that they prefer to not change (5) Politicians are corrupt and therefore a communist revolution would give birth to a dictatorship similar or worse than Stalinism (6) There's to many powerful people, namely oligarchs, to make it happen (7) And to conclude, I think our current system isn't bad enough to justify changing it

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15-03-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: What are your thoughts on communism?
(15-03-2015 04:23 PM)Blackout Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 03:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  Except the words not only don't say that, they don't even imply that.


Non-response. That's socialism, not Communism.
The link is from the American communist party. And the quote I provided talks specifically about communism.

Also, I miss to see the relevance, socialism is used as synonym to communism frequently and it's either the process to reach communism (a finite one) or the end itself which is similar to communism but with a little less equality and the state is not abolished. Because of that, all communists must be socialists at the same time, though not all socialists are communists

Can you enlighten me on how it would work then, since you seem to know so much about marxism?

I am talking about that quote, not the implementation of Communism.

Those words do not say what you, or they, claim they say.

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