What are your views on monogamy?
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22-04-2017, 03:24 AM
RE: What are your views on monogamy?
(22-04-2017 03:11 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(20-04-2017 09:16 AM)JesseB Wrote:  I've never seen it. Not once. People seem to love the checkbook of the one's they are with, or how hot their bodies are, things like that. I've never seen an example of someone actually loving another person and choosing to be with them for life. Nor have I seen an example of someone who hasn't/wouldn't cheat. (outside of myself and that would suggest that it is possible there are others out there, however I've gotten tired of looking)

Well, my parents are an example. Married in 1958 and utterly dedicated to each other. Although, in truth, I wouldn't know if either had strayed early on.

I've had enough heart-to-hearts with friends and acquaintances, male and female, to know that cheating is the default.

I am certain about only 2 guys, both Dutch, who have not strayed.
And one of those, with his partner since childhood, didn't even need a marriage contract.

(21-04-2017 03:33 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I must say, I'm pretty impressed by you monogamous atheist gentlemen. Very impressed indeed.
...

So am I.

And you can add me to that list. Although, unlike those who profess love, affection and stuff, for me it's about breach of contract.

Social contracts can be renegotiated but not broken.

Of course, there's a bit of interpretation regarding "cheating". My ex (for 14 years) would consider my pathological flirting to be cheating but I wouldn't.

I would consider her numerous sexual affairs to be cheating be she called that "entertainment".

Not that I'm bitter. I'm over it. Really, I am.

Weeping

(22-04-2017 01:25 AM)JesseB Wrote:  ...
I've been with like a few women (idk prolly a lot of women, like 10 or 12 I think). ...

OK. You beat me, there.

I've only managed 10... Blush

... in three hours.

But they were small ones in the Philippines so it probably only counts as 5.

Angel

You always make me laugh man, thank you for that.

I don't want to think I'm bitter. But I can't deny I have a lot of anger and frustration regarding dating in general. I prolly just don't belong anywhere in this world, it would explain a lot. It's funny cause this is the one topic more than any other that can get me emotionally compromised. I may act it sometimes with other topics, but generally not much can phase me. Just show's how important this topic really is to me.

Also I don't cope well knowing I'm likely not going to be able to pass on my genetic legacy, into the future, nor will I be able to pass on those strange unique qualities that make me me. I won't achieve the closest thing we have to immortality. Just another winner of the darwin award here. Win by default. After all if no one is interested you'll never be able to mate. It's evolution 101. So It may be that I was born into a world designed to hate whatever the fuck I am, but at least that world will ensure that this aberration of genetic waste will die with me.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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22-04-2017, 03:26 AM
RE: What are your views on monogamy?
(22-04-2017 03:11 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Although, unlike those who profess love, affection and stuff, for me it's about breach of contract.

In most cases, cheating requires lying -- in other words, intentionally depriving the person you say you love of their choices.
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22-04-2017, 04:43 AM
RE: What are your views on monogamy?
(19-04-2017 09:56 AM)LadyWallFlower Wrote:  I'd like to hear your views on monogamy and open relationships. I've been reflecting a lot about this topic recently. What are your preferences? If you have open relationships with people, tell me about how you transitioned from the traditional mindset about sex and relationships to a more open mindset.

First off, even within monogamous dating or monogamous marriage straight or LGBT, there is always risk of STD even for heterosexuals in one one one relationships. Oral sex and anal sex also can transmit disease within one on one relationships. Any type of body fluid exchange, even within heterosexuals. That is why condoms should be used, even with heterosexuals.

Having said that, if one is testing themselves and their partner and taking honestly with their partner and it is consensual then it really is none of my business. I would say on an evolutionary biological history humans, both male and female, have a history of being both one on one and others having multiple partners.

What counts isn't a utopia like religion sells, what counts is honesty and not lying, and good communication sills. Know what you are getting into, and the biggest red flag would be for any type of relationship, even an open one would be if the other is unwilling to get tested. If they are not willing to get tested, then that says they really don't care about your health. That also applies to heterosexuals and one on one dating or marriage.

Bottom line it is not an either or thing, but an honesty thing and a communication thing and a safety thing. Know what you are getting into, know your partner/s , know their history, know the risk, but most importantly, know your own comfort and what you want. Don't let anyone manipulate you into anything. It is still ok to do what you want, sure, but do it safely either way and be honest and safe about it.

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22-04-2017, 06:12 AM
RE: What are your views on monogamy?
(22-04-2017 03:26 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(22-04-2017 03:11 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Although, unlike those who profess love, affection and stuff, for me it's about breach of contract.

In most cases, cheating requires lying -- in other words, intentionally depriving the person you say you love of their choices.

I'm a horrible liar in general, but particularly when it comes to my wife, I can't do it. If something is on my mind, even some tiny niggling insignificant thing, she can see it. I have to say it, even though it's something most people probably wouldn't think is worth saying. Honesty is that important to me, and I get plagued by guilt if I feel I'm holding anything back.

So the idea that I could cheat on my wife is laughable. There's no way I'd be able to physically do it even if I wanted to (which I don't), and she would instantly know. My head would inflate to 10 times normal size and I'd be bright blue. (Erm... my main head that is Tongue )

Whenever I see statistics about it though, it's always pretty bad. I don't know how accurate they are, but if they're anywhere close, it's shocking.

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28-04-2017, 10:49 AM
RE: What are your views on monogamy?
(21-04-2017 03:33 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I think it's telling that atheists have lower divorce rates than theists. Sex isn't sanctified by a god or a church to an atheist. It's simply a natural part of life. I think theists get married to have sex and then realize they're not experienced and maybe go outside of the marriage to experiment with other partners. I donno. But theists seem to have an odd view of sex and monogamy.
I think a BIG factor is that so much more of what we do is our choice.

I mean, I go to the ophthalmologist a lot. I can stare at the goddamned light for an hour, but once she says, 'Try not to blink,' it's like there's an oscillating fan attached to my eyelids.

I thought long and hard about proposing, and she thought long and hard about accepting, and we knew that it was a risk and it was going to take work, and marriage was a big change from living tgether. And it's a process.

But when I was growing up, they presented marriage as the Goal. You get there, you're finished. You've won. You will be happy now. Period. I mean, if you're a good person, you're happy now, right? Right?

And then, when you're locked in to that relationship for the next sixty years, they say 'Don't blink ... I mean, don't cheat.' Don't even find others attractive. You WON'T find other attractive, because you WILL be satisfied by your one-true-luv.

They're just not prepared for their own feelings because everyone's been lying to them, with the authority of god, for so long.
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28-04-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: What are your views on monogamy?


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29-04-2017, 10:17 AM
RE: What are your views on monogamy?
(28-04-2017 10:49 AM)Missiletowe Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 03:33 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I think it's telling that atheists have lower divorce rates than theists. Sex isn't sanctified by a god or a church to an atheist. It's simply a natural part of life. I think theists get married to have sex and then realize they're not experienced and maybe go outside of the marriage to experiment with other partners. I donno. But theists seem to have an odd view of sex and monogamy.
I think a BIG factor is that so much more of what we do is our choice.

I mean, I go to the ophthalmologist a lot. I can stare at the goddamned light for an hour, but once she says, 'Try not to blink,' it's like there's an oscillating fan attached to my eyelids.

I thought long and hard about proposing, and she thought long and hard about accepting, and we knew that it was a risk and it was going to take work, and marriage was a big change from living tgether. And it's a process.

But when I was growing up, they presented marriage as the Goal. You get there, you're finished. You've won. You will be happy now. Period. I mean, if you're a good person, you're happy now, right? Right?

And then, when you're locked in to that relationship for the next sixty years, they say 'Don't blink ... I mean, don't cheat.' Don't even find others attractive. You WON'T find other attractive, because you WILL be satisfied by your one-true-luv.

They're just not prepared for their own feelings because everyone's been lying to them, with the authority of god, for so long.

I mean, I guess I agree with your first statement, so much of what we do is choice.

I was raped by 2 different people before I was 18 (Once when I was... very.... young and later when I was 16). If I don't include those sexual encounters I married the first girl I wanted to have sex with, and live with. Now I'm weird at 5 years old I was an old fucking man in many ways. Once I decide something I generally stick with it unless I have a damn good reason to change my mind (and feelings aren't good enough reasons alone to ever make a decision on in my opinion). This is just the way I am, and have always been. When I married my wife I intended to be with her until the day I died. I didn't and wouldn't cheat on her, her cheating on me, and all the other shitty stuff she did to me wasn't enough for me to even consider leaving her. And if she continued to come home drunk and rape me while telling me all about the other guys and girls she was just fucking a party, but she never left, well then I'd still be married today. I don't really think that's a particularly good thing, but it is how I am and what would have happened had she not left. I don't have that thing in my brain where someone tells me "don't cheat" suddenly I'm overwhelmed with a desire to cheat... I mean... that's kinda stupid on its face (that people can be like that) It's not a rejection of control or authority, it's just someone that's easy to control and manipulate. If someone told me not to cheat I'd say fuck off, I make my own damn decisions. If I choose not to cheat (regardless of what I'm told to do) even if that choice was 60 years ago, I'm gonna hold to it (because it was my choice and no one fucking makes my choices for me). AND apparently that's a crazy rare behavioral pattern for humans. Apparently most humans are not even evolved above animals and have no control over their emotions or actions, they just do whatever without thinking then post hoc some bullshit to cover up for them being stupid (at least that's how it seems these days).

With regards to the "someone tells you not to cheat suddenly you want to" nonsense which I agree with you, most people seem to be like that. It's sad and pathetic. However, I decide to go left, someone says I order you to go left. I don't say anything except maybe "fuck off dude" and go left anyway. I don't change my decision or make my decision based on other peoples actions (unless my decision is directly tied to how they are acting, like deciding on a persons trustworthiness). I'm a natural anti authoritarian, that doesn't mean I do the opposite of whatever people say, they have no control over me even if they are stupid and think they do. Instead I hold my own authority inside, and if I decide to act in a way that happens to make people think I'm doing something for them, well one day they are gonna be in for a very cold rude awakening. No one in a relationship has ever bothered to earn my respect or deference. I gave it to my wife cause I thought that was what you were supposed to do, but clearly she never earned it.`Granted, I prolly should have listened to my little brother (whom she had also flirted with for a while) and realized that she was a ladder climber, and she's gonna continue to fuck anyone she can to get what she wants. Her loyalty was directly proportional to the size of everyone's pocket books.

My biggest problem is I've simply never encountered anyone who wasn't like this (and I'm going to qualify this for all the people who freak out over generalizations), that was ALSO interested in a relationship with me. And I've seen very few examples of anyone not like this in general (with regards to people potentially eligible for dating). Women who are married are automatically not counted, the reason is simple. What if every decent person was already married and the only people available are worthless piles of shit, why would I focus on the one's that aren't available????? Granted Yes I kinda shoot myself in the foot by having self respect, values, honor, commitment, all those horrible personality traits only worthless people have. I should be a narcissistic brainless jellyfish going for whatever whenever, cause I have feelings and no fucking brain ya? I mean that's what everyone else seems to be doing.

Of course I can't really change those core parts of who I am, I try to tell people "your feelings are the most honest part of who you are, it's good to have feelings, and even if you tried you can't get rid of your feelings. But just because you have feelings doesn't make you right. And decisions based in emotion alone will NEVER be the best possible decision (even if it's right it still wont' be the best possible answer, you need your fucking brain to figure it all out). The only thing that separates you from every other life form we know of is your intellect and reason, but only if you choose to exercise those tools at your disposal." Funny enough most people get pissy over me saying this, they openly take the position that feelings trump everything all the time and so their feelings are always 100% right and everyone in the world should just agree. I've lost a lot of friends because of this.

My experiences are a bit limited, and it's a big fucking world. So yea maybe there's cool and decent people out there I could spend the rest of my life with (and are single, and would be attracted to me enough to consider me an option too), It's unlikely I'll find them based on past experience, but I hope they at least are out there, even if I never find them. Cause the way people are now makes me pity our collective future, makes me ashamed to be human. What I can say with confidence is dating sucks, I wish I was still fucking married to my abusive fucking ex, cause dating sucks worse than living with that cheating, lying, punching, demanding I work myself to death so she could have things, wanting all money spent on her all the time, never letting me out of the house, knife throwing wife.

Then again... best advice I can give is don't get married. Even though its the option I hate the most and don't' want, the world is now set up in such a way that being with another human in a relationship can only be abusive especially if you're a dude. And like you said. It's like this because this is what people fucking decided. Doesn't have to be like this, it could change. But only if people decide to be decent fucking human beings.

(I swear I'm not bitter lol)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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29-04-2017, 10:28 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2017 10:32 AM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: What are your views on monogamy?
Monogamy is all I know. Multiple partners would never come up for me when I was younger and monogamy still is the only choice I have. You see unfortunately, I have this problem of being a female repellant. Seriously, I am. My wife is the only person who ever showed much interest in me sexually. And I am not a bad looking guy or obnoxious, I must put off a smell or something. The trade off is that since I was so undersexed as a teenager, I go all in with my wife. But even if I had the chance, I doubt I'd do it.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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29-04-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: What are your views on monogamy?
In the end, I'm seriously considering finding a surrogate mother. Cause being a father is non negotiable for me. I would like to be a husband, a good one, who fulfills the unique roles laid out under the terms of the relationship (I'm pretty flexible I'd be happy to be a stay at home dad, I'm willing to kill myself in the oil fields, whatever my role I'll hold to it, but I need to find a partner that will also hold to their commitments in whatever deal we strike, so romantic ya? lol) Failing to find an appropriate partner well, being a father is far more important.

I'm gonna have the most badass kid who ever lived who saves the world from stupid people.... or have a kid that lives in my basement and plays video games lol who cares it's their choice. But I'll be the best fucking father I can be. I'll share with them my values, experiences, thoughts, make memories with them, help them, and whatever parts of me they think are worth taking into the future is for them to decide, I'll respect them and support them.

As for love, well I'm kinda easy there, I tend to fall in love with anyone who's nice to me (cause so few people are lol), and anyone I can respect I can love. I fall in love easy and I never "fall out" of love. Never have. So that's why I focus on other qualities when looking for a mate.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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29-04-2017, 10:32 AM
RE: What are your views on monogamy?
After 35 years if either one of us had an affair we'd both burst out laughing.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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